What's worse, brutal murder or fornication?

by Tornintwo 17 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Tornintwo

  Just to give you a bit of background, I've been researching my doubts for over a month, I'm convinced that although they may have some things right, they have a lot of other things horribly wrong. I'm still clinging to a faith in God, because I see a creator's hand in nature, and I believe in Jesus and his teachings, love, mercy, compassion.....that if everyone truly applied these (including jws) then all would benefit.

  But I read this article in March and it's been on my mind ever since. Where ISIS stone a young couple to death for sex before marriage (a bit graphic).

  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3017800/Sickening-images-blindfolded-bound-couple-brutally-stoned-death-fornication-ISIS-militants-Iraq.html

  Anyone not a member of ISIS could surely only see this as brutal and barbaric. But the god that I worship not only condoned but commanded this to happen in the OT! How does that reconcile with the God of love? The standard JW answer is 'the end justified the means, he had to keep his holy nation free from contamination', no doubt the ISIS leaders use the same reasoning today...

  Can anyone of faith help me with this? Also welcome comments from anyone from the agnostic to the atheist, I love the diversity here, it's great to hear all sides of an argument for a change.
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  smiddy

  Religion , like Politics, was formed to keep the masses in check. It probably worked well in dictator like systems , however it became a bit harder to control in more liberal type systems eventuating in Democracy .

  And over a period of thousands of years we have what is evidenced today.A pot boil of mixed emotions ,religions Ideologies that we have today.

  All designed initially to capture the minds of men to one agenda, but actually opened a Pandora`s box.

  Aren`t ISIS , Daesh , just doing what the Old Testament Scriptures required ? to be done to blasphemers , Adulterers , homosexuals ,Apostates , etc.etc.

  Not that i am condoning such practices , but that is what the Bible condoned in the Hebrew Scriptures and the God of the Bible is the same today as he was yesterday and will be tomorrow .

  So what does that tell you.

  Aren`t you cherry picking what you want to hear from Jesus Tornintwo ? don`t the Scriptures say that Jesus is going to destroy every man woman and child that do not believe / accept him ?

  And he does not have a good score in convincing everyone he is the Messiah , by the way.

  What would you think , if the Republican Party in the USA ,killed off every man woman and child of anyone that voted for the Democrats ,? or vice versa .? As an example of course.

  Would that be justified ? Moral ? Ethical ? Righteous even ?

  Think about it

  smiddy
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  FayeDunaway

  I think sex before marriage was like marrying someone in the OT...memory may be fuzzy since reading Leviticus, but the consequence of sex before marriage was you get married. This is not to say I think that was perfect...as many have said here, if it was rape, the criminal had to marry the victim. What if the victim didn't freaking want to? Maybe no one would have married her in that culture after she was raped, but maybe she would prefer that, did anyone ask?? Like job and Abraham and Thomas and Jacob, it's ok to wrestle with God. We don't have to agree with everything and question or doubt nothing. I've got many issues with God but I also have faith and I'm sticking with him and maybe he'll give me answers in this life, maybe the next...it's just nice to be free to have my own opinions and not have to take the Bible completely literally, all or nothing anymore.
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  kaik

  If you really read Dante's Inferno, does not matter what sin you have committed, you will end up in hell. This book is actually great way to analyze your moral, social, and ethical dilemma, because does not matter if you were unbeliever but lived moral life, or you had committed the most hideous crimes you end up in the same place - hell. However, you can be murderer and rapist, but if you believe in Christian God and repent, you go to Purgatory and eventually Heaven. So the issue with Christianity and much heavily in the Islam, is the submission and control to the will of God versus exercising your free will and do what is good and beneficial to the mankind.
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  steve2

  It is no recommendation for a group anywhere to proclaim it is going back to the teachings of the Bible. While many in the West condemn ISIS, just a few short centuries ago, and even less in some parts of thr West, men, women and children were rounded up and killed because they were accused by other humans to have violated God's laws.
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  Vidiot

  Reread the OT (hell, the entire Bible) whilst making even the slightest sincere attempt to be objective, and the veritable tsunami of weirdness, insanity, and general f**ked-up shit will wash over you like body fluids on a porn set.
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  John Aquila

  How does that reconcile with the God of love

  Perhaps a person might consider that in trying to reconcile a God of love with contradictions found in the Bible and the evil that exists in the world, ----

  One could ask himself; is it possible that "I" am starting off with a false premise that forms the basis of my argument?

  Since the premise or assumption is not correct, the conclusion drawn will always be in error.

  Here’s a good example I found in wiki that makes the point.

  {“Consider this example which involves an obvious false premise:

  · If the streets are wet, it has rained recently. (premise)

  · The streets are wet. (premise)

  · Therefore it has rained recently. (conclusion)

  This argument is logically valid, but completely wrong because its first premise to begin with is completely false - one could hose down the streets, the local river could have flooded, etc.”}

  There are some things in the Bible that have a ring of truth, but just because some things have a ring of truth, does not prove the Bible is inspired of God?

  Perhaps we are assuming that it is the word of God because “Many” people “Say” it is the word of God.

  For thousands of years “Many people” believed the Sun revolved around the Earth. And there was undeniable proof. All you had to do was sit in a chair all day and watch the Sun move from East to West with your own eyes. No one could deny the Sun was moving and the Earth was stationary. But now we know better.

  No one has all the answers about evil, God, and the afterlife. Everyone has a piece of the puzzle but no one has the entire puzzle.

  But if you start seeing that Perhaps the Bible is not inspired of God, then it allows a person to see that some of the stories in the Bible "may be" historically true, others stories may be distorted in one way or another, and others just plain false.

  The Bible does not have our name on it, it was not address to us. We are actually reading someone's else's mail.
  

  What FayeDunaway said is good advice, “It’s just nice to be Free”
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  DJS

  Torn,

  ISIS is also throwing gay men off buildings. Fornication is a man-made concept. It was invented to control sexual urges at a time when emerging societies did not have the resources to deal with children without baby daddies and the like.

  The entire concept of pornea/fornication is fabricated. As long as you hold onto that concept, you will judge gays, people living together, teens experimenting (which is called normal), etc. as deserving of death. Is that really what you want to believe and be known for? Really?

  I would suggest losing the term fornication. It is meaningless; it is a loaded word with pejorative death dealing connotations that needs to be thrown onto the ash heap of the 12 Century. Why we still use that word in the 21st Century speaks poorly of us as a species.
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  LoveUniHateExams

  Why we still use that word [fornication] in the 21st Century speaks poorly of us as a species - absolutely. Religious people are free to marry and keep sex within marriage according to their beliefs.

  What they are not free to do is force their beliefs onto others, including their own children when these turn 16.

  Government should keep a close eye on religions - no shunning, no honour killing.
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  leaving_quietly

  When I read the OT about who not to have sex with, the one thing that was conspicuously missing was any command not to have sex before marriage. If it's in the OT, please show me where. I saw stuff around what we would consider incest, but nothing around normal man/woman relations. Please, if anyone can show me where the OT has that command, please show me.

  This topic is of interest to me because, when I watch those nature shows, we see various animals, including primates that have plenty of non-monogamous sex. If these were created this way, then why would humans have a limitation on what seems to be the most pleasurable thing? This makes no sense to me, and is very inconsistent.

  As for which is worse, I don't know that we can figure that out, but I would say that for those who go on and on about how bad homosexuality is, which is worse, fornication or homosexuality? Can a degree of "badness" be put on it? The Bible puts liars and fornicator and murderers in the same category, all as those who would not inherit the kingdom. So, which is worse?