Judge rethinking ruling?

by writerpen 15 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Oroborus21

  Bigboi and others,

  too much misinformation...

  no one was forcing Mr. Newdow's daughter to say the pledge. As i stated in an earlier post the JW case, West Virginia Board of Education v. Barnette, already established the freedom for persons to not be compelled to salute the flag or say the pledge. This was not the issue in this case and the Ninth Circuit Court even addressed that.

  In fact one article Mr. Newdow admitted that he did not know if his daughter said the pledge or not and apparently has not talked with her or instructed her either way. He said this case was "more about him than her".

  To clarify another misunderstanding here, the Court has not stayed or is not reconsidering its opinion or decision, it has only stayed the application of its ruling pending the outcome of the appeals and petition for rehearing. Big difference.

  After reading the full opinion of the Court, I have to say that the legal reasoning is actually fairly sound.

  So another misperception above is that all legal scholars are saying it will be overturned. The media, politicians and others may be saying that, but I have read some notable constitutional scholars including my old professor, Erwin Chemorinsky, state that it is likely to be upheld or simply that the U.S. Supreme Court may deny cert (that is to hear the case).

  I do not agree with the ruling as I see it as a case of the "Tyranny of the Minority" and feel that if anyone has a problem with the pledge they had the option under Barnette to refuse to recite it but left the freedom intact for the majority to recite it as they wished.

  However, I am not as sure as I was before reading the opinion that the decision is legally flawed. I still think it is morally, ethically, practically and socially wrong.

  Here is an interesting subthought. As Jehovah's Witnesses we view the flag salute and Pledge as an act of religious worship (akin to the Bablyonian requirement to bow down to the idol given to Meshak, Shedrach and Abednego). So it is interesting to consider how it is possible to taint what is already a religious act with another religious aspect? In other words, the whole thing is already a religious exercise so either the world can recognize and remove it from the school setting or perhaps they should admit that and recognize it for what it is?

  --Eduardo
• 

  tdogg

  Good post Eduardo.

  If anyone cannot see that the logical decision was made in the ruling then I pity them. I'm sure the judges ruling were not all athiests but rather they were sensible people who had to make an honest evaluation of the case and came to the only logical conclusion. To do anything else would have been shirking the duty of their position.

  One doesn't have to like the fact that the ruling was made or even the implications of such, but I fail to see how they could have ruled any other way.
• 

  Kenneson

  Gopher,

  Militancy is not exclusive to Christians. It exists in atheists as well. And it cannot be justified in either. Are the atheists on this board always pleasant to Christians? Or the Christians to the atheists? Pretty much is reflective of society at large, wouldn't you say?
• 

  finnrot

  I couldn't really care about the flag salute. I only wish my parents would have let me salute the flag with the rest of the kids, instead of sitting at my desk like a little freak. The last time I mentioned that on this forum, some lady wrote in that her kids didn't salute the flag and that the rest of the kids in their class thought that was great and that they were special. Have kids changed that much since I went to elementary school in the 1960s or did she send her kids to school on another planet.

  What bugs me are the people that want class time set aside for their kids to say a personal prayer. If your little turds are programmed by you that they can't get through a school day without praying, then have them pray during recess or lunch.

  Edited by - finnrot on 28 June 2002 4:49:47
• 

  Gopher

  Kenneson,

  Well, since you asked... If you look at my profile, I am neither an atheist nor a worshipper of anyone's God. But I do recognize the existence of an intelligent Creator.

  That aside, I would say that the "Christians" here and elsewhere tend to have a greater urgency to preach their views, and to insist that others believe the same that they do. When taken to an extreme, it is a sign of emotional insecurity. But some atheists are the same way, and they too can display signs of insecurity.

  I believe the majority on the board will definitely discuss their points, but when push comes to shove, most will be glad to allow others to believe what they want to believe. Being former JW's, we've had enough of having a dogma "forced down our throats", so to speak. But of course on this board as in society at large, we do see unpleasantries exchanged.

  But that doesn't prove or disprove the merits of the argument of either side.
• 

  plmkrzy

  If anyone cannot see that the logical decision was made in the ruling then I pity them. Im sure the judges ruling were not all athiests but rather they were sensible people who had to make an honest evaluation of the case and came to the only logical conclusion.To do anything else would have been shirking the duty of their position.

  tdogg

  I agree with you, except for the pity part . The decision was made in the most unbiased and fair way possible to reflect what the constitution states in the first place regarding the core of our rights.

  The problem isnt going to be about whats in the flag salute. While everyone is making a big hoopla over the content of the flag salute theyre missing the big picture. The problem is going to come out of the statement Bush made where he basically said he was going to get rid of such Judges that would make, in his own words, ridicules decisions as these did.

  plum

  finnrot

  plumfin... finnrot....

  Have kids changed that much since I went to elementary school in the 1960s

  or did she send her kids to school on another planet.

  .

  I went to elementary school in the 60s but my parents must have been at least a little more open minded about the flag salute then a lot of JW families. I was taught that (and I am glade I was) that turning your back or refusing to stand and at least face the flag during the salute would be an act of disrespect more so then it would be exercising ones right not to pledge. So I wasnt subjected to abuse for not participating but I was hounded with questions often about why I didnt say the pledge. It was embarrassing sometimes and I hated it whenever we had a big assembly or an event where the entire school and parents would be there I wished we could just skip the flag salute.

  I think the woman that responded to you wasnt taking a lot of things into consideration like the fact that culture in the schools have changed enormously since we went to school.

  My sons High school has over 4,000 students and last survey was 70% Asian and out of that over 50% do not believe in or worship the Christian god This was actually the last survey I read the current one will probably show a significant change from that because we have a lot more Persian, Afgan, eastern folks in general.

  plum