There is no right and wrong

by campaign of hate 34 Replies latest jw friends

  • campaign of hate
    campaign of hate

    So i am a little tangled up in this train of thought, as it can go quite deep.

    As a Jw, albeit fully awake, we are taught that there is right and a wrong. Smoking is wrong. Going on the ministry is right. The teachings are very black and white, and very infant like.

    It got me thinking about the world in general, and what we are taught what is right and wrong.

    9/11 was wrong in the eyes of many, and in my specific worldview, it was wrong. But in the eyes of others such as extremist groups it was right.

    So America and UK bombed Iraq and Afghanistan. That act was viewed as right in the eyes of many, but for these countries it was wrong.

    Both events led to untold suffering and death. So surely the argument of right and wrong, and good and bad is invalid?

    If you take the teaching of God destroying everyone in the world, apart from JWs at Armageddon; in the eyes of JWs this is right, and in the view of everyone else this is wrong. If a JW suddenly finds himself in the firing line of God at this event, suddenly Armageddon is now looking not so good.

    Again, right and wrong is so easily changeable, it's not that the event changes, it's whether or not we are directly affected for the most part.

  • joe134cd
    joe134cd
    As I've always believed terrorism is very subjective, and dependant on where you live. Osama Bin Laden view of a terrorist is quite different to George Bush.
  • OneEyedJoe
    OneEyedJoe
    Both events led to untold suffering and death. So surely the argument of right and wrong, and good and bad is invalid?

    This is a bit of a leap, if you ask me. Isn't it possible that both events are deplorable, and the people that think they're good are wrong? It is true that without some supreme score keeper, morality becomes a bit subjective and arbitrary in some ways, but you can still get to a useful definition of good and bad. It may never be perfect since we can't always work out all the consequences of an action, but we can do a much better job of defining it than the god of the bible ever did.

    You might enjoy the video below. Someone posted this here a while back and I found it to be pretty well thought out.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=550nhrMNImI

  • FusionTheism
  • freemindfade
    freemindfade

    Anytime your morality must come from an external source based on ego of some sort, it's going to get twisted. What do morals do? really they make for a stronger society, healthier society. The dogma of religion, specifically the big three from Abraham, dabble some of this in with a lot of nonsense. Being kind to your neighbor, being a decent person, those things get lost in religions idea of right and wrong, then you have extremists committing great wrongs. Because YHWH, God, Allah always includes a 'but' or 'if'. It gives a loophole for great evils.

    "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."-Steven Weinberg

  • millie210
    millie210
    campaign of hate,
    Again, right and wrong is so easily changeable, it's not that the event changes, it's whether or not we are directly affected for the most part

    This is sadly, very true but dont you think we have a moral obligation to ourselves to fight the tendency?

    Bertrand Russell (I think) said that "War doesnt decide who's right, just who's left.

    Like OneEyedJoe said in his post: Is it true that without some supreme score keeper, morality becomes a bit subjective and arbitrary in some ways?

    I would think that we would want as humans to not be merely reactionary to life in our decision making and thinking. Otherwise how evolved are we? If one is an agnostic or an atheist I would think this is even more imperative.

    I mean, reacting to events is easy watch a puppy - or a 2 year old.

    I love the "tangle of your thoughts" analytical philosophy is one of my favorite topics.

  • Jonathan Drake
    Jonathan Drake

    What you are addressing in your OP is our (that is, people raised as or majorly brought up in the JW faith) ethics and morality. I think possibly what you're realizing is that you now have to work to reprogram your concepts of these.

    We have been taught and brought up to believe them to be completely grounded in our faith and the bible. For example, the fruitages of the spirit (love, joy, peace, long suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, you remember) are called, "... of the spirit."

    JW doctrine this teaches that without the spirit these characteristics cannot be possessed adequately - and as a nonbeliever in JW dogma you certainly wouldn't have them.

    In short: our religion (and indeed most if not all) teaches there is no morality without religion and so coming out of it leads to this inevitable quandary of 'is there right and wrong?'

    I've just finished reading several books by Sam Harris and I highly suggest you read one in particular: The End of Faith. I also suggest reading Undeniable by Bill Nye. What you will see discussed in these books (I believe more so in Undeniable) is the subject of altruism and the development of our morality by evolution. Science has shown that ethics and morality developed this way and is absolutely not reliant upon faith to be had.

    Harris provides a very good example by a discussion about collateral damage that shows how morality can be measured. In the recent and current battles in certain middle eastern areas the United States may blow up a building targeting a very evil man or group of men. In doing so, it isn't unheard of for innocents to be killed (and he gives an example of this) possibly even children. The United States views that loss of life as a tragedy and regrets very much the loss of innocents. This is called collateral damage. By comparison, a Muslim may strap a bomb to himself and try to blow up an American official but in doing so kill a dozen children and several adults. Unlike the U.S. response to such unintended loss of life, this is celebrated and praised. Further, the man who blew himself up is celebrated joyfully by his neighbors at home and even his parents are happy.

    Thus is the difference between collateral damage and terrorism. It's the intent and he subsequent reaction that measure the morality. Attempting to kill an evil Muslim who is intent on slaughtering as many westerners as possible for no reason other than his faith is the moral and right thing to do to save lives, mourning the loss of innocent life in this effort is the moral and right thing to do because it's tragic. The exact opposite can be said of the other side.

    Ethics and morality are absolutely not monopolized by, and in fact do not even originate with, faith and religion. The belief that they are is the only reason why anyone would ever view 9/11 as right, in the case of your one examples. This is a fact of reality and one I suggest further reading on immediately.

  • LoveUniHateExams
    LoveUniHateExams

    Everyone - religious people, deists, agnostics, atheists - have a sense of right and wrong.

    Good comments, Jonathan Drake. I suppose a good question would be: are unintended deaths from American drone warfare as bad as jihadi lunatics blowing themselves up in a mosque or beheading aid workers? Clearly, there is no moral equivalence between the West and Islamic terrorism.

  • millie210
    millie210

    In my opinion this topic would be better served if we didnt take it down the path of 9-11, right or wrong?

    I think COH (original poster) was merely using that as one example.

    9-11 is fresh and new but the abstract principles of the basic argument he is making still hold.

    What if we applied it to the Americans Indians scalping settlers in the American west?

    Or how about going further back for the sake of objectivity? How aboutThe Peloponnesian War?

    What then?

    Very interesting definition Jonathan Drake:

    It's the intent and he subsequent reaction that measure the morality.

    I have to go to work but I am going to think about that for sure.

  • Hold Me-Thrill Me
    Hold Me-Thrill Me

    War has nothing to do with morality. Political ends are in themselves "moral" to those who believe that a particular political end serves their purposes. War and conflicts are a means to a political end, nothing more.

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