So I overheard a discussion that my son and wife were having about creation yesterday

by My Name is of No Consequence 19 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • My Name is of No Consequence
    My Name is of No Consequence

    So I am getting ready for bed yesterday night and I overhear my teenage son and wife talking about how the evidence of creation far outweighs the evidence of evolution. I heard my son say that evolution has so many holes and how could something happen from nothing. I wanted to open the door and ask them both how the creator happened from nothing just to see what they would say.

    At this point in my life, I really don’t know what to believe. Maybe there is a “force” out there that created everything. But one thing is for sure: that “force” doesn’t give a s**t about us. All you have to do is look around.

    Murder.

    Starvation.

    Injustice.

    Cancer.

    Molestation.

    I can go on.

    What about our "perfect" earth? If this earth is supposed to be so perfect for human life, why are there hurricanes, tornados, earthquakes, floods, tsunamis and extreme temperatures? These things kill people by the tens of thousands every year.

    I plan on talking to my son when my wife is not around and tell him not to allow himself to be spoon fed everything that he hears and is taught. It is difficult because he is my stepson and my wife has legal authority in virtually all of the decisions that involve him. I am going to try to encourage him to do his own research and to arrive at his own conclusions.

    Wish me luck!

  • Crazyguy
    Crazyguy
    Someone posted on another thread a picture of a before and after of what looked like two galaxy that had collided. Ask your son after showing him this picture. If there was a creator a god and he gave a rats ass then why does he allow galaxy to collide and stars to blow up and planets even our to be his by big astorids and comets?
  • OneEyedJoe
    OneEyedJoe
    I plan on talking to my son when my wife is not around and tell him not to allow himself to be spoon fed everything that he hears and is taught. It is difficult because he is my stepson and my wife has legal authority in virtually all of the decisions that involve him. I am going to try to encourage him to do his own research and to arrive at his own conclusions.

    This is a great plan, in my opinion. Telling him "evolution did it" vs his mother saying "god did it" isn't going to seem like either of you are any different, so he'll just stick to what he's decided. Telling him "don't trust anyone" vs her implicitly telling him "take my word for it" will be quite a contrast and might be enough to make him question why you have the confidence that he should figure it out on his own, while she (and the cult) insist you simply trust them.

    On the topic of the earth's apparent perfection for suitability for life, the creationist argument can be defeated without even appealing to natural disasters. If life requires a fairly narrow set of conditions to exist (this can be argued for the life we see here, but might not be the case for all forms of life) then it would make sense that any life that formed would do so in a place that is apparently perfect for it. Furthermore, specialization over 4 billion years would be expected to result in life that appears to be perfectly suited to its environment. It's not that the earth is perfect for life, it's that life has become more or less perfect for the earth.

  • cantleave
    cantleave

    MNIONC Educate yourself on evolution. The evidence is overwhelming, whereas there is no evidence of a supernatural force. Once you understand the theory why you will be able see the logical fallacies behind the Watchtower and other fundamentalist arguments.

  • Oubliette
    Oubliette

    MNIONC: I heard my son say that evolution has so many holes and how could something happen from nothing.

    The first thing you need to do is to explain to your son that evolution is not the same thing as discussing the origin of life.

    Evolution is indisputable. Even the WTBTS acknowledges that, only in such weasely language that it is hard to see unless you're really looking.

    No one knows how life began. No one. This is why many people give up looking for answers, shrug their shoulders and say, "God did it!"

    Maybe there was some outside intelligent being that started life here on this planet. I think the evidence for such a hypothesis is weak, but no one knows for sure. And of course you still have the problem of "Where did that creator come from?" At least for now, that is an unanswerable question either way.

    On the other hand, if there was some intelligent being(s) that planted/seeded/started life here on Earth, it sure as hell wasn't the capricious, narcissistic, genocidal desert god of the Old Testament. Now THERE'S A STORY THAT'S FULL OF HOLES!



  • StrongHaiku
    StrongHaiku

    I don't think you will need luck because you are doing the most important thing - i.e. asking questions. That's always a good place to start. I was a JW and I believed that God created everything, evolution was incorrect, all science is suspect, bad things happen because Satan and sin, etc. When you are inside, all outside information is made suspect and unreliable. It wasn't until many decades later of studying topics and sources outside the WTBTS material that you start to realize that (a) the Society often presents their arguments incorrectly/deceptively then (b) proceeds to answer their own carefully crafted questions to make it fit the answer.

    For example, the Society constantly proposes that "if evolution is not true, that proves...God." and will also throw in the Big Bang Theory into the mix at times. This is a logical fallacy and it confuses the topics. For one, evolution (change over time), is a fact. We then have The Theory of Evolution as the current and best scientific explanation of the evidence (e.g. fossils, genetics). The Theory of Evolution does not attempt to explain how life originated. That area of study is abiogenesis. Abiogenesis deals with if/how non-organic material could organize (over time and processes) into to complex organic life. Lots of great experiments in that area show promise. Lastly, we have the Big Bang Theory which is the current and best scientific explanation to how the universe began from a high-density state then expanded. Lots and lots of progress being made to get closer and closer to the first instant of the universe.

    The reason for pointing this out is that the WTBTS confuses these (and other) topics to make arguments that fit a solution they want to fit - i.e. God did it. They make a further mistake to imply that disproving any/all of the previous (and other) scientific theories means - "God did it". This is not correct as the premise that "God did it" would require its own body of evidence irrespective of the validity of a particular scientific theory.

    One thing I would recommend is do some research on some of the above topics - i.e. The Theory of Evolution, abiogenesis, and The Big Bang Theory using sources outside the WTBTS. Here is a good article on evolution you might enjoy - http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/15-answers-to-creationist/. There is a wealth of information out there that do not include God into the equation so you can learn the topic objectively. And, perhaps, you can invite your son on a learning adventure when you feel ready. Maybe you could couch it as "learning to counter the arguments we get at the door". And, "encouraging him to do his own research", as you stated, is an excellent idea.

    As for "why is the world the way it is?", that is an important question. However, as an exercise, you might want to simplify the question by removing a supernatural/force to the equation to start and only add it in when it is necessary. Once you do that a lot of things begin to make sense. And, you may find over time that you don't need to add the supernatural into the equation.

    For what is worth, "Good Luck".

  • Doltologist
    Doltologist

    Hi MNIONC

    To understand the something from nothing argument, at the detailed level, requires the IQ the size of major planet. At the high level, however, it's understandable for someone of average intelligence.

    The first step is wanting to look at all possible answers rather than the one(s) that one wants to believe.

  • John Aquila
    John Aquila

    Even the WTBTS acknowledges that, only in such weasely language that it is hard to see unless you're really looking.

    Hi Oubliette

    Do you recall the publication or magazine where they acknowledge evolution? Thanks!

  • nelim
    nelim

    John, the WTS calls it "micro-evolution" to distinguish it from "macro-evolution". But of course they will not (and cannot!) explain where the boundary would be then between these two.

    FYI: the origin of life is called abiogenesis. Like already said, indeed important to keep this separate from evolution.

    Perhaps you can point your son to research the anatomy of whales. See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIEoO5KdPvg

  • John Aquila
    John Aquila

    John, the WTS calls it "micro-evolution" to distinguish it from "macro-evolution". But of course they will not (and cannot!) explain where the boundary would be then between these two.

    Thanks Nelim!

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