Minors bound to jw baptismal contract?

by Cappuccino OC 27 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Dutchie

  AlanH, you said:

  ".....minors cannot enter into legally enforceable contracts...."

  Please forgive me. I've recently finished law school and this same question came up on an exam. "Can children enter into legally binding contracts?" I know that the myth is that children cannot be legally bound to a contract. Well, the truth is that children can be bound to a contract legally. The difference is a child can opt not to be bound to a contract whereas with an adult there is no option. So if a child reaches the age of majority and he decides he no longer wants to be bound by the contract he entered into as a minor he can legally opt not to be bound. However, when he reaches adult age and he wants to fulfill the contract he can do so.

  So, the difference is the child has a choice. The adult does not.

  I have been waiting to use that piece of knowledge! Thanks for allowing me. Regards.
• 

  singsongboi

  i read all this with interest...

  the question is raised, of course, for only one reason --

  that some want to walk away without the "stain" on their character caused by being df'ed of ds'ed. in the JW section of the national community.

  i am not a lawyer, but it appears to me, that if it can be shown that being disfellowshipped or disassociated would cause a 'mark' on one's reputation, then the validity of the agreement (made at baptism) is fundamental to both the actions of the elders doing the df-ing or ds-ing, or the "victim" in protesting their right to do so..

  More!! -- if one is said to "accept" a set of beliefs as part of verbal agreement to contract, at the time of baptism -- then what is the result of a change in the doctrines that constitute the "beliefs"?

  In all of this, one thing is sure. whoever challenges their right to df or ds, will have to fight it all the way to the highest court.

  it seems to me, that by merit of sheer weight of numbers, such an action may work best in the US... second choice a european nation..

  maybe now is the time to establish a legal charity -- with funding such a legal case as it's purpose.
• 

  noidea

  The bible never speaks as baptism as a legal contract ..it is a public declaration of serving God.
  With the WBTS and God being two separate identities where is the legal contract in this.

  I was baptized at the age of 12. I took that baptism as meaning that I wanted to be a disciple of Christ and that I believed in God. I also at that time knew that we were not to put our trust in man.

  I know that a marriage ceremony is also a public declaration ..with that I also signed a marriage license which would enter that as a legal document..the public marriage ceremony would have been void without that. I was also under legal age for that and had to have the signature of a parent or it too would have been void.

  Does anyone have a copy of the baptismal questions that were asked before they made the changes? I would look it up on my CD ROM but it's not working..I think I used it one too many times as a coaster for my beer.

  ~~~Noi~~~
  ***********

  Member of the: I have ~No-Idea~ class.
• 

  Amazing

  Hi Dutchie:

  "I know that the myth is that children cannot be legally bound to a contract. Well, the truth is that children can be bound to a contract legally. The difference is a child can opt not to be bound to a contract whereas with an adult there is no option."

  Your comment seems like a contradiction. If a child can 'opt' out of being bound, then the contract is not binding ... and hence unenforceable.

  It seems a stronger argument would be a unilateral contract, where a child can inherit an estate, and the terms and condtiions are attached to the estate such that the child must comply with its provisions in order to receive the beneift ... perhaps completing a 4 year college degree obtaining a BS, or BA, or forfeit the estate. Yet, even here any beneficiary, whether adult or minor can 'opt' out in a unilateral contract ... but the terms are still enforceable.

  Since you completed law school, what do you think of a minor JW getting his religious baptism made null and void, such that he can force his religious organization to accept him/her as though never baptized? How could this be enforced upon say, the Watchtower Society? On what basis in law would a minor have a cause of action to try this in court?
• 

  Dutchie

  Hi Amazing, I was just trying to show the difference between an adult who made a contract and a child who entered into a contract. I guess it did seem a little unclear. An adult who enters into a contract is bound by that contract, but a child who enters a contract can later decides if he wants to be bound by it or not. Is that clearer? Let me know.

  Maybe an example: If a child entered into a contract with you in which you stated that you'll give him $10.00 for every beach ball he sells and then later you change your mind, can the contract be rendered null and void simply because he had not yet reached his majority. After all, he's only a child and you may think that your contract with him is not binding. That is not necessarily so just because he is a child. It can be a legally binding contract. Is that better? I hope so.
• 

  Dutchie

  Sorry Amazing:

  Just saw the second part of your question. A minor can opt to no longer be known as one of Jehovahs Witnesses because he does not recognize the contract as binding on him. He sends a letter to the organization and they say okay, you are no longer one of Jehovahs Witnesses. If he is still a minor when this happens he might be allowed to walk away. If he is an adult with long years of service and with a reputation built around him as one of Jehovahs Witnesses they are going to want to make that announcement. The only way that announcement could possibly be stopped is if you hire legal counsel. This will be very hard to challenge. You are going to have to show how you could be damaged personally and materially if the announcement were made.

  Okay, okay, I admit I am just guessing.

  I would have to do some research on if the courts of the land recognize baptism as a legal binding contract secularly or if baptism falls under Religious Laws. I'll get back to you.
• 

  singsongboi

  dear no idea,

  i guess we are NOT talking about the "ideal" meaning of baptism....

  but of the "fact" that the WTS claims to own you when you get baptised --- that they are the trustees for god, caring for all his "valuable things" on the earth..

  hence, you are NOT allowed (permitted) to walk away from your congregation.

  you can only leave, if first {b} they throw you out

  and that when they do, your relationship with all your ex-friends and relatives is totally and irrevocably broken (in their eyes)..

  this is an intolerable situation!!!

  I do not think that many religions have gone to this extent of "ownership"[/b]

  even in the catholic church, excommunication was used mainly as a political weapon to bring recalitrant ruler and theologians into line...

  in practise they excommunicate very few....! (well, compared to jws!!!)

  when you got baptised, you may only have jehovah/jesus in mind, but, because you chose to do this thru jws.. you also got them (the cong,the elders and the GB)... whether you agreed to it (in the "new" questions or sort of unacknowledged in the old questions)
• 

  noidea

  singsongboi,

  I totally agree with what you're saying as to what "they" feel baptism means.

  What the WBTS "thinks" and what is "legally binding" is what we're talking about.

  ~~~Noi~~~
  ***********

  Member of the: I have ~No-Idea~ class.
• 

  Amazing

  Hi Dutchie: Thanks for the response ... first, I understood your point the first time about children in contracts. My only point is that is a minor can 'opt' out, then in fact any such contract is unenfoceable with respect to that minor. I agree that an adult in the same contract with a minor is normally bound to it ... but there are arguements where an adult can break a contract with a minor.

  "I would have to do some research on if the courts of the land recognize baptism as a legal binding contract secularly or if baptism falls under Religious Laws. I'll get back to you."

  A religious act is not subject to civil or criminal laws as long as the act is not unlawful ... e.g. the Case in Oregon where a public school teacher was fired for using Peyote in Tribal, Native American religoius ritual. Peyote is an illegal drug, and the Oregon Supreme Court (and I think the US Supreme Court as well) upheld the decision by the School District to fire the teacher.

  Religious 'Baptism' is definitely not a contract in any state nor recognized by any federal contract laws ... religious baptism does not meet the burden of what constitutes a binding contract. Baptism does not have any of the following essential elements to a contract: It is not written, it does not state a 'lawful' purpose, it does not stipulate 'specific performance', and it does not have lawful 'consideration.'

  Baptism is a religious act totally separated from anything enforceable under civil, criminal, or military law ... this is why I am wondering if a minor baptized in a religion at an early age, could later make the case to nullify the act and enforce this upon his/her church.

  I will watch for your reply. By the way, I really appreciate that you completed Law School ... it is a tough discipline to endure ... and then the practice of law is a whole new world ... are you planning on taking the Bar Exam in your State? What area of law are you planning on for your career?

  Law is my second love next to engineering ... so, when I make comments on matters of law, which I do at times, please comment ... whether I goofed or was on target ... thanks.

  Edited by - Amazing on 9 June 2002 10:44:31
• 

  AngryXJW

  Some of Dutchie's remarks re "contract" law are about as accurate as was her post a couple days ago in which she stated that an elder who perjured himself by denying knowledge of the "Organization" book and/or Elder's Manuel could be sued for "libel".
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  As for "baptism of minors" in the JW faith being "void" or "voidable" in a legal context, such is nonsense. Who is the "daddy" of this stupidity, and why does it come up at least once per month? Baptism is a "religious practice", within the jurisdiction of the faith in question, and as should be known by now, the US Constitution prohibits courts from treading in this area.