Heretic!!!

by cellomould 16 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Diogenesister
    Diogenesister

    I thought the reason the church burned people at the stake was because they could not shed blood (clearly an absurd "work around". A perfect example of the letter of the law but not the spirit).

    Saying the church is holy but the people transgress....well, I'm not buying it. The people are the church.

    However, I find your argument about the threat non European's pretending to be Christian posed, whilst spying for the Caliphate. A compelling reason to take drastic action, Since the caliphate wished to reconquer Spain. But what of the Jews? The church cannot claim the conversos were a threat?

    Interesting Watchtower judicial meetings follow the exact same methodology the Spanish inquisition used, according to Dr. Jim Penton!

  • Sea Breeze
  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    "Saying the church is holy but the people transgress....well, I'm not buying it. The people are the church."

    The Church is made up of people, but the Church is an institution, a legal entity, which by definition cannot even sin. The historical facts of the Inquisition, the Crusades, and the Galileo trial etc. do not discredit the Church, firstly because the sanctity of the Church is not diminished if some of its members commit sins; secondly, because the anti-church historical perspective greatly exaggerates the significance of these events, while at the same time silencing many holy and righteous moments that would significantly change the perception of them.

    Apostle Paul also found serious mistakes and sins in the early Church, but it never crossed his mind that the Church had ceased to be a Church and to be holy. He demands excommunication, not a new foundation: "It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans; for a man has his father's wife. And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you" (1 Corinthians 5:1). Jesus said that sins and scandals are inevitable in a community, but the consequences are personal: "It is impossible that no offenses should come, but woe to him through whom they do come!" (Luke 17:1). ....so only "to him", not to the Church at al!!!

    If, with the spread of the Church, the initial fervor cooled, and mass conversions brought with them the weeds, sometimes to an extent that it seemed to threaten to suppress the good harvest: there was never a time in the Church when shadows extinguished all light. Its indestructible holy vitality was shown anew by rising from its lows by its own strength: precisely in times of lethargy and moral low tides, it conceived and nurtured within its own bosom the heroes who brought a new religious dawn (great ecclesiastical innovators, founders of monastic orders; e.g., in the 13th and 16th centuries). The fact that the Church sometimes exhibits very great abuses and sad declines in the field of religious and moral life is due to:

    1. The uncompromising purity and sublimity of the Catholic ideal, against which human nature, disciplined into strict discipline, is more prone to passionate rebellion than against indifferent or compromising educators.

    2. With certain psychological regularity, great declines follow or accompany great upsurges; where there are no high mountains, there are also no deep valleys or chasms threatening.

    3. The pervasive deficiencies among the ecclesiastical leaders in the Catholic Church have a stronger impact due to the hierarchical principle than in other congregations; and conversely, because here the priesthood is not a caste, not an Aaronic priesthood, but every generation of priests is recruited from among the faithful, and the decline in the moral and religious standard of the faithful also makes the renewal of the priesthood difficult.

    "But what of the Jews? The church cannot claim the conversos were a threat?"

    During the medieval and early modern Christian-Muslim armed conflicts, the Jews always fought on the side of the Muslims. The Jewish-Muslim relationship was not bad at all until the 20th century; in fact, Jews generally supported Islam over Christianity. It is not appropriate to project the current state (Israeli-Palestinian conflict) back into the past.

    I suppose this would be justified by Jewish perspective historiography with the argument that they fared better under Muslim rule than under Christian dominion. The Christian perspective, on the other hand, suggests that this was because the Jews, using modern terminology, posed a national security risk as they potentially worked in the interest of Muslim rule. The question of which came first, the chicken or the egg, remains a good one.

    The Spanish Inquisition was indeed characterized by extraordinary severity and lasted a long time. However, due to its origin, purpose, and methods, it requires a separate assessment. The Spaniards, having just liberated themselves from 700 years of Arab rule, used it for political objectives to maintain their hard-won national independence and unity, while preserving a veneer of religious character. Its organizer, the creator of Spanish national unity and royal absolutism, was Catholic Ferdinand (reigned 1479-1516), with its first chief inquisitor from 1481-98 being Tomasso Torquemada OP (†1498). The Inquisition's task was not so much the persecution of heresies, as there were hardly any heretical movements in Spain at that time, but rather the detection and suppression of numerous conspiracies against the newly formed Christian kingdom. Its cruelty (prolonged investigative imprisonment, torture, burning at the stake, life imprisonment) was often condemned by the popes, though with little result. The institution was not abolished until 1820. Whether the political goal of the Spanish Inquisition, the maintenance of national unity, could have been achieved in another way is difficult to say today, not least because political power has since then continued to use every means for similar objectives.

    The Inquisition has become a real hobbyhorse of anti-church movements. It is necessary to criticize the barbaric and cruel methods of jurisprudence characteristic of the era, which resulted from the amalgamation of Roman law, as well as Frankish and Germanic legal customs, but it is important to recognize that this was typical of the time. The excesses of some representatives of the Church must also be criticized. However, the viewpoint that seeks to portray the Church as a discredited institution because of the Inquisition should be rejected. The number of victims of the Inquisition was large, but nowhere near as many (hundreds of thousands) as biased historiography, such as that of the Freemasons, tries to present. It lacks any scholarly basis to conflate the characteristics and severity of the Spanish Inquisition with the operation of the Inquisition in general. In evaluating the Inquisition, more objectivity and a more unbiased processing of the available documents would be necessary than has been the case to this day.

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    "From the birth of Popery in 606 to the present time, it is estimated by careful and credible historians, that more than fifty millions of the human family, have been slaughtered for the crime of heresy by popish persecutors, an average of more than forty thousand religious murders for every year of the existence of popery." -- "History of Romanism," pp. 541, 542. New York: 1871.

    Article

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    Most Protestant fundamentalists live with the belief that more people died during the Inquisition than in any war or epidemic. Huge numbers circulate among them, based on nothing but their own concocted statistics. Interestingly, these numbers keep growing, as if they are trying to outbid each other, to surpass one another. What started as several thousand victims per year has become five thousand, then ten thousand, one hundred thousand, and then it continued to the point where now there are 25 million, 50 million (as Milton Carroll says in "Trail of Blood… 1931"), and even one popular fundamentalist book (Jack T. Chick's "Smokescreens. Chick Pub. 1983.") attributes 68 million victims to the Spanish Inquisition alone, and if we add his other claims, that amounts to 95 million!

    These million figures are so grotesque that they cast doubt on the sanity of their authors, but let's just consider it a case of demographic ignorance.

    The total population of Europe in the 14th and 15th centuries was about 45-60 million people, and it only reached 100 million by the end of the 17th century (this can even be verified in a high school textbook). Moreover, there was no Inquisition in Northern Europe, Eastern Europe, or the British Isles. The Inquisition primarily affected Southern France, Italy, Spain, and certain areas of the Holy Roman Empire.

    Furthermore, historians can point out signs of every major population decrease in social, societal, and demographic structures, as well as in archaeological excavations, such as plagues, wars, etc. However, no such evidence has been found in the territories affected by the Inquisition, and there can only be one reason for this: the small number of victims. This is also supported by the documents recording the Inquisition proceedings (which was mandatory in every case). Based on these and other historical research, the current position of historians (independent of the Catholic Church) is that the number of victims can only be placed in the thousands.

  • aqwsed12345
  • aqwsed12345

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