Sincere Question for You Know, Eutapro, et. al.

by Jewel 15 Replies latest jw friends

  • Jewel
    Jewel

    I am not trying to be sly or trick you. These questions are the ones that I would love to ask the elders that occasionally come to visit me. Ones that I wanted to ask years ago when I was a Witness. I have not asked them, because I don't want to be disfellowshipped-it would make my elderly mother's life much more difficult.

    First background-when I was a Witness, there were obvious problems with the judicial procedures and the way the elders handled many things in the congregation. Many publishers were concerned and unhappy. Those that went to the elders were "marked". They weren't called on at meetings, people "forgot" to invite them to social events in the congregation. Some were put on "reproof". There were some disfellowshippings.

    We received many, many talks about "respecting Jehovah's organization", "not questioning Jehovah's governing arrangements", how elders are anointed through the influence of the Holy Spirit, how the elders answer to the Society and the Society answers to Jehovah. These were slipped into almost every meeting. I especially remember talks about Miriam and how she was struck with leprosy by Jehovah for speaking against Moses. The allegory was that Moses represented the Society and anointed elders and Miriam represented those who were questioning the elders.

    This went on for several years. Eventually, as I became an adult, I drifted quietly away.

    My Mom, who is still a very active publisher in the same congregation tells me that things are better now. At least one of those elders was removed from service. One went to another congregation. A couple died. My Mom has discussed the situation of that time with the elders who are serving now and she has discussed it with the Circuit Overseer. She tells me that the elders are human and imperfect. She tells me that Jehovah has handled the situation. She tells me that Jehovah was allowing Satan to test the congregation.

    Here are my questions. How can the elders claim things both ways? How can they be appointed by Jehovah and therefore must be followed without question, yet also be human and therefore prone to mistakes? Did the Holy Spirit allow men who were not qualified to be anointed as elders? If Satan was testing the congregation, was he allowed to influence the anointing of unqualified men as elders? What about those who were disfellowshipped for questioning mistakes being made through the human imperfections of these elders? Weren't they right, after all? Who caused these disfellowshippings, Satan or Jehovah's Spirit? If Satan is allowed to use Jehovah's organization to "test" His people, how do we know that any article, appointment, prophecy, or arrangement is by Holy Spirit and not actually influenced by Satan? If Satan can use Jehovah's organization, is it truly Jehovah's organization? Or Satan's (at least sometimes?)

    I am not being facetious or sarcastic. These are the questions that I had as a teen and continue to have. They are the ones that caused me to leave an organization that I couldn't trust. I would sincerely appreciate a reasoned response.

  • MikeMusto
    MikeMusto

    Hello there perhaps I can answer one question,

    The new understanding as regards to being appointed by Holy Spririt is this...

    The are recommended as older men of the congergation by using the
    guidlines found in the Bible. The Bible was written by inspired men
    who were inspired of Holy spritiy. In this way it can be said that
    they are appointed via Holy Spirit. They are not appointed by a spiritual action from Jehovah. Its that simple.

  • Jewel
    Jewel

    Soooo, if they are appointed only indirectly via Holy Spirit, is it OK now to question their decisions? My Mother questioned the wisdom of the elders decision to sell their Kindom Hall just last year and was almost put on "reproof" for "causing divisions". How can it be justified that the elders can't be questioned if they are going to lean toward the "imperfect humans" part more now? I would think questioning another imperfect human should not be seen as "divisive". If they are as imperfect as anybody, how can they have disfellowshipping (i.e. the power of life and death)responsibilities?

    My Mom was "saved" by the fact that the KH wouldn't sell at any price so apparently it was NOT Jehovah's Will that it be sold. The elders decided it might be better to just drop the whole thing.

    Edited-forgot a quote mark!

  • ThiChi
    ThiChi

    Jesus said that we have one master and all of you are brothers. Reading Paul’s letters, he debated quite a lot with other non apostles and mostly ignored the brothers from Jerusalem (EPH:1 :2).

    It is not the visible power structure that we should be looking to, but the invisible headship of Jesus Christ. Elders have authority to serve, not to “subordinate others.”

    Ray Franz second Book, ISOCF, really addresses this issue well.

  • You Know
    You Know

    Jewel asks:

    How can the elders claim things both ways? How can they be appointed by Jehovah and therefore must be followed without question, yet also be human and therefore prone to mistakes?

    First, elders are not to be followed without question. Oftentimes elders are counseled by other elders or the circuit overseer, and sometimes they are even removed for various things. At times entire bodies of elders are removed for not serving the congregation well. So, it's not like the elders are not accountable to the Watchtower Society, and, of course, ultimately to Jehovah God. But, there are going to be problems. There's just no getting around it. Imagine how Jesus felt on the last night of his life, after having spent 3 years trying to teach his apostles a little bit about what it means to be a shepherd, and there they were at the Passover table having yet another dispute about which one of them was the top dog. Yet, the account says that Jesus loved them to the end.

    Did the Holy Spirit allow men who were not qualified to be anointed as elders?
    The holy spirit usually doesn't intervene to rectify our mistakes. We each have to live with the consequences of our actions or inactions as the case may be. And Jehovah will definitely hold an accounting with elders. The letter of James says that not many Christians should be teachers because they will receive a heavier judgment. Or, as Christ said, the one whom people put in charge will have more demanded of them. Interestingly, Paul counseled elders not to hastily recommend a man for fear we might become sharers in his sins. So, the point is that it is possible for unqualified men to be chosen by those who do not carefully consider the qualifications of each candidate. And obviously elders making the wrong decisions can't expect Jehovah's holy spirit to bail them out. At times the elder body may be divided on a particular appointment. In fact, I had an experience where I was adamantly opposed to recommending a particular man, but my fellow elders at the time strongly persuaded me to go along with their judgment. So, I did, to my regret, and we had to remove him just a few months later when he ran amuck.

    If Satan was testing the congregation, was he allowed to influence the anointing of unqualified men as elders?
    It is possible I suppose, but most of our problems are more than likely poor judgment. And too, at times a man may start off well and over time become tyrannical. Paul warned the elders of that scenario when he counseled elders not to recommend a newly converted man for fear he would later become puffed up with pride and fall into the judgment passed upon the Devil. But, make no mistake about it, Jehovah does allow Satan considerable latitude to influence the leadership within the organization. For example, the Bible speaks very highly of king David, and yet the scripture says that Satan stood up and successfully tempted David to perform a census of his army, which brought Jehovah's judgment upon the nation. In the Corinthian congregation Paul sarcastically referred to the super-fine apostles, who were elders in Corinth, but whom Paul said were deceitful workers and false apostles under Satan's control. Lastly, bringing it up to our day, Daniel 11:35 says thatAnd some of those having insight will be made to stumble, in order to do a refining work BECAUSE OF THEM… So, unquestionably, Jehovah’s purpose allows us to be tested by being subject to the errors of our leaders. The ultimate example of what God allows is the fact that Jesus handpicked his apostles, one of which was to become the most ignominious man that ever lived---Judas.

    What about those who were disfellowshipped for questioning mistakes being made through the human imperfections of these elders? Weren't they right, after all?
    I have never personally known of such a case, but I am sure it’s happened before. The Bible makes mention in 3rd John that some tyrannical elder named Diotrophes hindered the brothers and tossed faithful ones out of the congregation.

    Who caused these disfellowshippings, Satan or Jehovah's Spirit?
    Jehovah would never act in such away, but as the Scripture show with numerous examples and prophecies God allows the Devil a bit more operating room then most of Jehovah’s Witnesses would like to admit.

    If Satan is allowed to use Jehovah's organization to "test" His people, how do we know that any article, appointment, prophecy, or arrangement is by Holy Spirit and not actually influenced by Satan?
    The Scriptures say that we should test every inspired expression to see if it originates with God. That means that each Christian is responsible for their own spirituality. The point is that we can’t allow other men to dictate every matter of our faith, otherwise we are simply following men as Satan accuses us of doing in the first place. Jesus gave the apostles some interesting advice, he told them to do whatever the Pharisees told them. So, for the remaining time that the Jews were under the yolk of the tyrannical pharisaic system Jesus told them just to submit to it. Similarly, what we have now is a very imperfect system, but it is what Jehovah has allowed for us and it does have some benefit. So, our challenge is simply to deal with it and allow Jehovah’s purpose of testing and refining to come to its completion, after which God Almighty is scheduled to turn the whole world, and our little organization included, upside down and shake it real good until the cream floats to the top.

    If Satan can use Jehovah's organization, is it truly Jehovah's organization? Or Satan's (at least sometimes?)
    Yes, but, again, there is a point in time when Christ claims complete ownership of his congregation at which point the angels collect out all the bad boys and girls.

    Hope that helps. You may enjoy reading this post that I wrote a few weeks back.

    > http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=28050&site=3

    / You Know

  • You Know
    You Know

    Thought I would bring this up to the top for you. / You Know

  • Dawn
    Dawn

    You Know:

    Thank you for your posts.

    Although I no longer believe that the WTBS is God's chosen organization - I do appreciate reading your posts. I think it is a good idea to keep an open mind and I like to hear both sides of these issues.

    I hope that you continue to contribute to this forum.

  • You Know
    You Know

    Thanks Dawn. Even though my YK Internet persona is admittedly a bit nasty, I hope you appreciate that in order to be effective I must maintain a certain level of animosity towards apostates. But, the truth is that I really do love people and feel badly for those who have fallen away. I share Paul's feelings when he said: "Who is stumbled and I am not incensed?" You know, of course, that I believe that at some point something very nasty and completely unexpected is going to erupt that is going to rock this old world like it has never been rocked before and that in all probability the Watchtower will get blown out of the water too. I am currently preparing a web site for the purpose of serving as a place where friends of Jehovah can consider what heretofore has not been presented to them. It is my belief that Jehovah, in his magnaminity, will leave open a window of opportunity for those who have been stumbled to return to their faith, provided they can muster the faith. Hopefully, when the system blows I will gain some measure of credibility and trust with those who are familiar with my writings on this forum, and elsewhere, so as to serve as a reliable guide for what is to occur during that concluding interim. / You Know

  • drahcir yarrum
    drahcir yarrum

    You Know:

    I hope you understand that by accepting the "apostates creed" and being privy to the secret handshake, I must also keep up a facade of animosity toward you and other JW's who visit here against the advice of the Mothership.

    I knew you'd understand!

    Drahc

  • You Know
    You Know
    hope you understand that by accepting the "apostates creed" and being privy to the secret handshake...

    What do you think got my arm in a sling? LOL / You Know

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