Parousia (again)

by leaving_quietly 26 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Viviane

  They could have been caught up around 70 c.e.. These verses are definitely speaking of a changing of corrupt mortal humans to incorrupt immortal humans. Then they are speedily snatched up to the spirit realm with Christ. Not modern at all,but plain as the nose on your face,with all due respect.

  Sure, maybe they were, but there is no evidence for it. And yes, the modern reading of the rapture is a modern invention. If it were as plain as you say, Christians wouldn't argue so much over it and it would have existed as a concept prior to ~250 years ago.
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  Island Man

  1 Corinthians 15:52 says the resurrection of those who belong to christ happens at the sounding of the last trumpet. Matthew 24:29-31 indicates that a great trumpet will sound at the time of Jesus' coming after the great tribulation. Logically, then, the last trumpet cannot sound before the great tribulation (because it wouldn't be the last trumpet, since a trumpet is to sound after the great tribulation) and therefore the resurrection of the anointed cannot occur before the great tribulation. The Watchtower teaching that the resurrection of the anointed already started around 1918, is thus proven to be false.

  2 Peter 3:9 indicates that God is patient in bringing the promised presence because he is giving time for all to repent because he doesn't desire any to be destroyed. This clearly implies that when the presence begins there would not be any time to repent because it will begin destructively - not as a century of invisible rule from heaven, as the JWs falsely teach. 2 Peter chapter 3 repeatedly uses "presence" and "the day of the Lord (Jehovah, NWT)" interchangeably thus demonstrating that the presence starts dramatically with the destructive day of Jehovah and not as a century of invisible rule from heaven. The idea that the presence already started in 1914 and yet there has still been a whole century of time for people to repent, contradicts what is clearly implied by 2 Peter 3:9. Note, also, that according to JW theology which holds the start of the presence to be synonymous with the start of the last days, the ridiculers mentioned in 2 Peter 3:4 would be asking where is the presence while living during the presence, and this great irony is lost to the inspired writer, Peter. Clearly, the JWs are teaching rubbish.

  James 5:7 tells christians to exercise patience until the presence of Jesus. This use of until implies that when the presence starts christians would no longer need to exercise patience because at that time they will at last experience deliverance from their trials by receiving their heavenly reward. (2 Thessalonians 2:1) But according to JW theology a christian who was alive when the presence started in 1914 would have to continue exercising patience throughout his life - for a whole century! - after the presence begun. JW theology invalidates the encouragement given at James 5:7.

  1914 has royally screwed up the JWs eschatology.
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  cofty

  It was the parousia that got me DFd...
• 

  Bobcat

  Leaving:

  If I am understanding the difference you are seeing between the NWT and most other versions -

  The term "presence" in english represents a period of time. Whereas "coming" or "arrival" represents a point in time event. Thus, depending on how you choose to translate the word parousia, this will determine whether you use "at" (for a singular event) or "during" (for something happening over a period of time). The Greek preposition used before parousia is en (literally "in" or "on").

  For any interested, here is a listing of verses using the term parousia in connection with Jesus. Here is a listing of verses showing that Jesus was already considered to be ruling (i.e. the start of his rule does not correspond with his parousia).

  Bobcat
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  prologos

  wt teaching : heavenly resurrection after 1918 ( after cleansing of the heavens), during the parousia that started in 1914?

  2Tim2:18 : "-- deviate from the truth, saying THAT the RESURRECTION has ALREADY occured, --subverting the faith-- '" fulfilled in 70? or still a valid prophecy?
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  Chris Tann

  Excellent points island man. Parousia was used for the ARRIVAL of a dignitary and his subsequent visit. It seems the Jews believed the Messiahs presence(at least the Apostles) was a signifigant arrival and then changes insued because of said arrival. Matt.24 does use parosia and comming interchangeably-vs.30,36,37,42,44,50.
• 

  Crazyguy

  I think Chris hit the nail on the head when he explained that Paul said ones would not be resurrected but changed, these are the first fruits then after all those who belong to Christ that have died would be resurrected. Nothing the Borg says is correct on this point.
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  leaving_quietly

  @cofty, I read your story before I posted this topic. Somehow I knew you'd comment.

  @Bobcat, yes, you understand what I'm saying. The translation in the NWT in 1 Cor 15:23 makes it seem like the resurrection of the ones who belong to Christ (which WTBTS says is only the 144,000) happens gradually from the beginning of his invisible presence until some point prior to Armageddon (as, if I recall, is the latest thinking on the matter.) As to your other point, nowhere in the scriptures (that I can recall) is parousia linked to Christ's becoming King. It's always in the context of his second coming. (And after looking at your list, it seems we once again agree.)

  @prologos, yes, this though occurs to me, too. Probably contextually out of place, but WTBTS does say that the resurrection has already started.

  @Island Man, yes, you see the issue, correctly. Your last sentence hits it on the head. Totally screwed up.

  It seems to me that reading comprehension is a skill that eludes WTBTS interpreters.
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  DATA-DOG

  They are so jacked up. At the RC, Gerrit Loesch read from revelation about "the rest of the dead". He said that group consisted of those resurrected to life DURING the 1,000 years. The only problem is that the "rest of he dead" don't come to life until AFTER the 1,000 years.

  I'm with Terry on this one.

  DD
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  Chris Tann

  Data Dog: did they change this teaching? Because last time I knew,the "rest of the dead" were the Armagedon survivors who gradually come to life throughout the millennium,then when they are perfect they are said to come to life in that sense. This doctrine though,is full of flaws.