Parousia (again)

by leaving_quietly 26 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  leaving_quietly

  I noticed this during the WT study on Sunday.

  1 Cor 15:23: "But each one in his own proper order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence."
  
  
  The Greek word for presence is "parousia", which needs no explanation here as to how WTBTS views this word versus the rest of the world.

  What I noticed was the striking contradiction made just a few verses later.

  1 Cor 15:51,52: "Look! I tell you a sacred secret: We will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we will be changed."

  Verse 23, in the NWT, infers a gradual resurrection while verse 52 infers a quick and abrupt resurrection.

  Comparing this with 1 Thess 4:16, we find agreement with 1 Cor 15:52: "because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first."

  My conclusion is that 1 Cor 15:23 is completely inappropriately translated by WTBTS. It should read, as nearly every other translation does: "when he comes" or "at his coming" or "when he arrives" or something similar.
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  J-DUBBED

  I'm a bit confused...............I thought this Forum was all about Ex J-Dubs?

  Why do you still go to the J-Dub Club?
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  leaving_quietly

  Some of us are stuck in JW land for various reasons, although mentally out.
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  The Searcher

  DITTO!
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  sir82

  JWs teach that 1 Cor. 15:23 refers to a resurrection taking place sometime around 1918, "during Christ's presence" - that would be all the old "anointed" Christian from the 1st century onward.

  They teach that 1 Cor. 15:51,52 refers to the immediate death + resurrection of any anointed left on earth just as Armageddon is about to break out.

  For a JW, there is no contradiction here.
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  Chris Tann

  You are quite right leaving_quietly,however notice in Corinthians 51,52 Paul is speaking of two different groups. Paul is addressing Christians in Corinth who are, of course,alive. He says of them and himself, that they all wont fall alseep,or die,but instead of dieing and being resurrected they will be changed. Notice he says changed,not ressurected.

  He goes on to say that at the last trumpet the dead will be raised up,then he says "and we" ,that is the living of verse 51, will be changed. Verse 53 says "for (or because) this which is corruptible must PUT ON incorruption". Yes,this is how the living faithfuls are changed, by putting on incorruption. This is what the rapture is.

  Notice how this also harmonizes with 1 Thess.4 15-17. Those who are alive at Christ Presence will not precede,or go before the dead. Vs. 16 says the dead in Christ will rise first,then, he says,addressing the very much alive congregation,that they,the living who are surviving(the greek can also mean left around) will be caught away. Or as the Greek can imply: being snatched up,;not resurrected.

  Yes,Paul was speaking to and about living Christians of his time. They expected Christ's presence to occur soon in their time,not some 2,000 years later to those who die. The scriptures are very clear that the rapture,or if you prefer snatching up,is real.
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  Viviane

  The scriptures are very clear that the rapture,or if you prefer snatching up,is real.

  No they aren't. The rapture as believed in by fundamentalist Christians in the past 200 years is a relatively modern invention.

  Paul is addressing Christians in Corinth who are, of course,alive. He says of them and himself, that they all wont fall alseep,or die,but instead of dieing and being resurrected they will be changed.

  Paul was clearly wrong as they are all dead now.
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  Terry

  Thinking of the Bible as timeless will mess with your mind.

  It is a series of snapshots strung together and overlaid out of order.

  These "snapshots" were but varying opinions.

  One writer did not seek solidarity with the others.

  _______

  To drive the point home, copyists would intrude on the text to "help the reader" and this corrupted the text further.

  Trying to parse scripture is like trying to juggle spaghetti.

  If you don't believe me, ask yourself this question:

  WHY ARE THEIR OVER 40,000 CHRISTIAN DENOMINATIONS, each convinced it is THEY who have the correct, truthful view?
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  Chris Tann

  They could have been caught up around 70 c.e.. These verses are definitely speaking of a changing of corrupt mortal humans to incorrupt immortal humans. Then they are speedily snatched up to the spirit realm with Christ. Not modern at all,but plain as the nose on your face,with all due respect.
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  leaving_quietly

  @Chris Tann, I agree with you on your points. I am only referring to the resurrection of the dead ones and how the word parousia relates. I've gone back and forth in my mind on the meaning of the word. But, for me, this seals the deal. Parousia is not referring to an invisible presence, but to the time when Christ actually arrives. BTW, I agree that the Bible teaches rapture. It's obvious from various scriptures, even Christ's own words at Matt 24:31 and 24:40,41.

  @sir82, yes, you are right. JWs see no contradiction in their erroneous teachings. In any of them. Strange how that is. Of course, they can't since WTBTS does all their thinking for them.