Satan, perfection, new world, and being s***ted on again

by Tenacious 11 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Tenacious
    Tenacious

    According to the Bible man was created a little lower in abilities to that of angels. This means that angels are a tad higher in regards to their perfection. Perhaps they have a word for it in the spirit realm as we mere mortals do not. If an angel like Satan was beyond perfect in every sense although having free will, where did the sinful tendencies develop from? Was there someone else in their world that tempted Satan?

    Does this mean that in the future no other angel will rebel and we are in effect guaranteed a perfect sinless new world for eternity?

    Or can we expect another spirit realm rebellion and then be s***ted on again?

    Considering the aforementioned, we are expected to believe that since we will all be perfect in every sense and no longer have any evil to tempt us into sinning, that we will live happily ever after?

    The comparison here is how we as humans, expect to be sinless in the new world, yet a perfect angel rebelled causing us humans to be severely s***ted on for the past 6000+ years?

    Your thoughts?

  • punkofnice
  • Vidiot
    Vidiot

    Tenacious - "Or can we expect another spirit realm rebellion..."

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0114194/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1

  • St George of England
    St George of England

    For what it's worth JW teaching is that only Jehovah, Jesus and the 144,000 gain immortality.

    So all the other spirit creatures such as the angels can sin and die. In fact Paul said that those of the anointed will "judge angels, so why not things of this world".

    Don't try to make sense of any of this, it's all twaddle anyway. When you die, that's it. Don't wait around for the New World, it isn't coming!

    George

  • Apognophos
    Apognophos

    The JW answer to the question about a future rebellion is that Jehovah would simply destroy a second Satan when he started to rebel. The universal sovereignty issue only needs to be settled once.

    As for why Satan rebelled if he was perfect, why did Adam and Eve rebel, temptation aside? Why would Jesus be able to provide a ransom with his perfect life unless it was possible that he could decide to sin? These perfect beings had free will and could choose to sin, and some of them did (so the story goes).

    On a deeper level, it is difficult to conceive of how free will would work, or how God is allowing free will to be exercised when he promises to flatten anyone who "freely" chooses not to obey him. However, if one believes in the magical concept of free will (and I find most people do, including many atheists), then the answer is simple: a free moral agent can choose to do whatever he wants.

  • Pterist
    Pterist

    God created things which had free will. That means creatures which can go wrong or right. Some people think they can imagine a creature which was free but had no possibility of going wrong, but I can't. If a thing is free to be good it's also free to be bad. And free will is what has made evil possible.

    Why, then, did God give them free will? Because free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. A world of automata -of creatures that worked like machines- would hardly be worth creating. The happiness which God designs for His higher creatures is the happiness of being freely, voluntarily united to Him and to each other in an ecstasy of love and delight compared with which the most rapturous love between a man and a woman on this earth is mere milk and water. And for that they've got to be free.

    Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently, He thought it worth the risk. (...) If God thinks this state of war in the universe a price worth paying for free will -that is, for making a real world in which creatures can do real good or harm and something of real importance can happen, instead of a toy world which only moves when He pulls the strings- then we may take it it is worth paying. C S LEWIS

    IMHO ...All issues are resolved in this MORTAL creation, before it is transformed to immortality. Suffering and Evil can't be immortalized.

  • Simon
    Simon

    The happiness which God designs for His higher creatures is the happiness of being freely, voluntarily united to Him and to each other in an ecstasy of love and delight compared with which the most rapturous love between a man and a woman on this earth is mere milk and water. And for that they've got to be free.

    With the proviso: that they will be killed if they don't do exactly as he commands. Even if they don't do 'wrong'.

    So "free" like those living under nazism or communism.

    Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way

    Being all knowing he must have known not just what could happen but also what would happen ... so he did it anyway and condemned millions of creatures to misery and torment.

    Remind me who the good guy is supposed to be again?

  • Viviane
    Viviane

    Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently, He thought it worth the risk. (...) If God thinks this state of war in the universe a price worth paying for free will -that is, for making a real world in which creatures can do real good or harm and something of real importance can happen, instead of a toy world which only moves when He pulls the strings- then we may take it it is worth paying.

    So... God really is just a guy hoping things don't go wrong and, if they do, can't fix it? Not much of a god you have there.

  • Tenacious
    Tenacious

    @ Pterist

    I understand your logic regarding freewill.

    God in order to fulfill prophecy, protected Jesus throughout his life. Therefore, he allowed himself to look into the future.

    Today, scripture also says Jehovah will protect his earthly organization so that it is not completely destroyed in order to once again, fulfill prophecy and his purpose. So Jehovah in effect allows himself a limited view of future events in order to protect his servants or at least most of his servants, in order to vindicate scripture. This is where it gets a bit murky for me. According to scripture anyone can have an accident and die yet scripture also says that if you are loyal to Jehovah he will protect you. I'm going to assume that he knows who he will protect because they will serve a specific purpose perhaps making more disciples? Perhaps during the GT? Maybe the individual that was about to die had yet not proved himself to God and more time was allowed for him to prove his faith in God and not be destroyed eternally? Of course all of this without predestination. While I see that it is a complex issue, many questions arise from predestination, members who were exemplary witnesses yet Jehovah allowed their death, future events. The survival of the one true God earthly organization collectively not individually. Does anyone remember that assembly a couple of years ago where the drama involved the death of a daughter and grandfather in a car accident? I remember blanking out for a second in order to grasp the concept of Jehovah not protecting them or allowing it to happen to prove a point to Satan where Satan is testing our integrity to Jehovah in the family members remaining faithful and loyal even though their loved ones died faithfully.

    I would appreciate your sincere input on freewill, predestination, future events, and how all of these tie-in with future events including the GT and the Big A.

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel

    Actually, the word isn’t “angel,” but “gods.” Man made man a little lower than the gods, or “holy ones.” Satan rebelled as an angel and took a third of the angels with him. The remaining angels, I think, were those of us who were born into mortality. Witness John, who spoke about falling down before one of the angels showing him his vision. The angel replied, “See thou do it not: for I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.” (Rev. 22:9) In other words, the angel once lived on Earth as a prophet.

    That’s why I’m convinced that God doesn’t create evil beings. People become evil, and, I think, some are born evil. Even though two thirds of us kept our first estate, I believe some were more developed than others. Some of the more wicked spirits may not have rebelled because they knew Lucifer could not possibly win, or they may have had other selfish motives. Certainly, premortality was a popular doctrine in first century Christianity. The apostles asked Jesus, “Lord, who did sin, this man or his parents that he was born blind?” (See John 9) And Jeremiah wrote, “Then the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, ‘Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.’” (Jeremiah 1:4-5)

    I just watched the entire series of interviews with Richard Kuklinski, the “Iceman,” who committed over 200 (by his count) murders, many of them for hire. Then I read Ezekiel 38-39, where the Lord speaks to a man not even born. As I get older, I believe that some people (perhaps all of us) bring a certain amount of baggage into this world. Why do some kids seem to be kind, generous and caring, while others are torturing animals by the time they’re ten years old? Kuklinski said he was beaten up as a kid. Well, so was my dad, but he didn’t turn into a psychopathic killer (that I know of). He was a Type A aviator, whose father was a mean drunk. He definitely carried baggage, but it showed itself in other ways. Still, he was a good, decent, honest man who knew how to make friends and keep them for a lifetime. Kuklinski? Well, he killed all his friends, and anyone who “made me mad.”

    Just my view. Having known many kids, and having been one, I know that all men are only equal in the eyes of the law. So where does the evil come from? This isn’t to say that some children are not born innocent. They all are until they reach an age of reason. But as they reach that age, they are capable of great goodness or evil. I can’t believe they just appeared that way.

    The apostle Peter, according to the Clementine Homilies, argued:

    Learn this also: The bodies of men have immortal souls, which have been clothed with the breath of God; and having come forth from God, they are of the same substance, but they are not gods. But if they are gods, then in this way the souls of all men, both those who have died, and those who are alive, and those who shall come into being, are gods. But if in a spirit of controversy you maintain that these also are gods, what great matter is it, then, for Christ to be called God? for He has only what all have. (Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor 3.1, in ANF, 2:271)

    This is significantly different than the soul-sleeping beliefs of the Adventists (including JWs), but despite their holding on to that doctrine, it just isn't long-lived. According to very old non-canonical Christian literature, it's quite clear that the ancient Christians absolutely and without question belived that men had eternal spirits. It was not a Greek intervention.

    .

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXgi72W2H7U

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