Exerps, Conversation/Debate with a close old friend still in the Borg. Comments please!

by dark angle 21 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • dark angle
    dark angle

    Part 1

    She was suspecting me that I'm no longer interested in the Borg, and she was trying to get a confession. This is how our conversation went out. Names replaced with XXXX and YYYY.

    She: can i ask a question?

    me: sure, don't make it difficult.

    she: we've been friends since childhood, right? I always wonder how you are doing. Okay, here's the question...how are you doing spiritually, my brother?

    me: by your standards not good. not that I've been doing bad things, I seldom attend meetings.

    she: You know it's not MY standards, right?

    me: true, but i know you live your life that way, you been excellent in following our faith, you've made the truth your own.

    she: Don't worry brother, i never get offended man by anything you say. As i've said, the most important is the concern and worry. We've been friends since kids!

    she: How do you feel about the truth, XXXX?

    Me: The search for truth is the ultimate and lifelong goal. so im always seeking the truth, even though i knew my brain can only understand a small portion of it. hehehhehe. as Carl Sagan wrote: “The truth may be puzzling. It may take some work to grapple with. It may be counterintuitive. It may contradict deeply held prejudices. It may not be consonant with what we desperately want to be true. But our preferences do not determine what's true.”

    She: You know what i mean, XXX, and you even said it...I mean THE truth...

    me: ahh, sorry, religious truth, as i said im not doing good as i have doubts and no longer regular at meetings. My brain is switching between two meanings of truth, religious meaning, and the opposite of lie and reality or being in accord with fact or reality.

    She: sorry just arrived from the meetings...XXXX, another question...Are you happy right now? I mean, the real inner joy.

    Me: Well, i have ups and downs just like others, but generally life is just okey. Doesn't mean that everything is ok. have frustrations at times, but in wider scope, its alright, and at times quite rewarding.

    She: So do you think I am wasting my time 'slaving for Jehovah'? Sorry XXXX , but you know i view you as family. Even though no communication, that doesn't mean you and your family are no longer important to me. Your father was the speaker at my baptism, and you are really our family friends. Can't help but worry about you, the way I worry about other friends who are drifting away or have left Jehovah for good... I am deeply grieved that you are having doubts...

    Me: I didn't say that, since we have our own ways to fulfill our goals. If that is gratifying and brings you joy then its not time wasted. we live a very short period in time and we should make the most out of it in our own way.

    YYYY, dont be sorry for being upfront. I have admire you for making such questions. Regardless how different our paths took as time pass, you are always part of my beautiful memories and be treasured as a friend. And worry not, my goal is always about seeking the truth. I believe truth is just one and is not segment into compartments such as religious and scientific truth. Someday humanity will eventually understand better a universal truth. hahahha, that is just a conjecture though.

    doubt is not always bad as it can encourage one to dig dipper, to investigate, and conduct further research that may confirm or disprove certain ideas and notions. as humans we are always prone for error and bias, so its always good to self examine. and this is what i meant when i say doubt.do you think thats wrong YYYY?or to put it in your own jargon, do you think im wasting my time?

    When i was on high-school my dad conducted a bible study with me, he choose the Life-how did it get here? By Evolution or Creation? book since all other books were already familiar to me and since i myself have been using the "You can live" in my bible studies. This in order to keep my studies more challenging since i have many question about the topic, so he thought. And he was right because i was delighted and enthusiastic about studies

    this made me a staunch defender in our school on debates about Creation vs Evolution.having read it several times already, i was very familiar with its argumentation.however, when i was in my early twenties, upon further encounters in preaching with people in CEB about this topic i found myself lacking in scientific and clinical data to support my stand. this has encourage me to reevaluate and reexamine my stance, and this has change my view because i found many errors on our book. A brother and a professor in biology in a university help me by detailing many of this points on a letter. I tried to carefully read his points thoroughly as i have read our book and the same persistent errors are always confirmed. Upon pondering and humility i accepted these, and has changed my views ever since.

    here is the letter that you may critically examine: A critical analysis of the scientific material in the book.docx (gave her a link)

    she: Its really difficult if we just base on any human opinion...Jehovah can answer those, at the right time...in the meantime, there are more important things to busy ourselves with...there are issues a lot bigger than things we may want to delve into. Jehovah's right to rule and our own loyalty are still the biggest issues...

    Me: No, its not about others opinions, its about honesty and being truthful in making statements and publishing books. (and especially more important when we claim to be inspired by God)

    She: XXXX, you know the organization has never claimed to be INSPIRED by God. Only the Bible writers were inspired, or literally, God-breathed. But you can't blind yourself to the fact that this is the only organization that has overwhelming proof of the BACKING of Jehovah's spirit. Besides, the faithful slave has never claimed to be INFALLIBLE. That's exactly the reason why over the years, refinements have been made in our understanding of Bible truths. And that is fulfillment of Prov. 4:18. The faithful slave is never too proud to admit that some of our beliefs do need to be refined. THAT is honesty, humility, and modesty. If we are too impatient and try to find truth apart from Jehovah's pure teachings, then we will always be at the losing end. That is a fact. And the sad part is, in our efforts to delve too much into matters that are not of the utmost importance at the present time, we are already lagging too far behind the celestial chariot. (Deep sigh)

    XXXX, I won't force you to believe me. who am I? Im just an ordinary human...Even scientists like Albert Einstein or Isaac Newton won't be able to convince you if you have already made up your mind...And most of all, the Creator and owner of the universe himself, Jehovah God, will NEVER force us to believe him or even serve him. But we cannot escape this fact: Unless we use our life to serve Jehovah, we will always feel empty. No matter how hard we try to find the truth, if it is not according to his way, we will still end up frustrated. We will grow old full of regrets. AND we create more pain to Jehovah and hurt ourselves, too. I don't want you to experience that, XXXX. Please, my friends, just think about it...and hopefully, PRAYERFULLY...I'll end our conversation here, ok?...

    I mean, my friend. I have to be honest, you make my hair stand on end by your thinking...sorry...I can't believe you've gone that far na...

    Me: Its ok YYYY. I perfectly understand your position having been raised as such. However, contrary to what you emphasize, im not blind. I'm always open to new ideas. As the society put it in the creation book "we need to consider the evidence with an open mind", and have since followed that advice.

    sorry for the word i said about being "inspired". We have been taught that the bible is inspired and the societies book were guided by God. However, when i do a simple search, "inspired" "guided" or "directed" all convey the same idea and are just synonymous and can be used interchangeably on certain sentences. She: It's not just about being raised as a Witness. Like Timothy in Bible times, I also had to make a lot of effort to make sure that what I believe in IS the truth and and that im not decieved. After 26 years? The more im convinced that my efforts were not wasted.

    XXXX, you tell me to do research? Well, thats always part of our work. when you say 'synonyms,' in English grammar they don't mean exactly the same, they are just similar. In Greek, 'inspired of God' literally means 'God-breathed.' He used his holy spirit to put into their minds what to write for our benefit. The faithful slave nowadays prayerfully relies on the sacred writings to help us stay firm in the faith. Hayyy...I don't want to argue either...mukhang walang patutunguhan eh...you've made up your mind...kaka-sad lang...

    I'm not upset for myself, if that's what you mean...I just feel jealous for Jehovag God...it's okay XXXX...

    Me: Thanks for the concern YYYY, i hope i didn't ruin your day. Be assured that my mind is not "made up" already. A locked up mind is a stagnant one and i always try to avoid such. Im always open to someone who can point out errors in my judgment. progress can only be achieved by realizing our past errors and correcting it. btw, im not encouraging you to leave "Jehovah and his son", if that's what you think Im doing. Just explaining to you about my story since you ask.

    She: You sound too intellectual na tlg! I know you are not encouraging me to do that, but its what you imply...

  • punkofnice
    punkofnice

    by your standards not good.

    You lost it there I'm sorry to say.

    The conversation was one of those typical JW cliche ones. Preprogrammed responses galore.

    You never know you might have opened her eyes a bit but if the WBT$ 'mind cleansing(tm)' has done it's work it would be a bloomin' hard slog.

    You answered honestly and carefully so well done geezer!

  • KateWild
    KateWild

    dark angel,

    That was an interesting conversation. She came out with all the expected jw nonesense though. You handled yourself well, I am glad you showed her respect, friendship and gave her your time. You showed her you are nice even though you have left.

    Kate xx

  • Coded Logic
    Coded Logic

    From you discussion you posted, I think your friend would do well to learn that sincerity is not the same thing as humility. And a person can be sincere while simultaneously being arrogant.

    Arrogance: offensive display of superiority or self-importance; overbearing pride. Claiming to have abilities or knowledge that one doesn't actually have.

    Just because she has good intentions does not mean she has good facts. Sincerity is not a metric for determining the truth of a claim.

    Edit: Seems like ablebodiedman might need to learn this too.

  • KateWild
    KateWild

    If you had watched the entire video we could discuss it on this discussion forum.- Abe

    Start you're own thread then and see who wants to join in, you are highjacking this thread your video has nothing to do with having a conversation with a witness, this thread is about dark angel's conversation with a JW about why he believes in scientific facts and evolution. You're video is off topic I have watched some of it and I know it's off topic.

    Kate xx

  • ablebodiedman
    ablebodiedman

    Sincerity is not a metric for determining the truth of a claim.

    Coded Logic,

    You are correct!

    Thoroughly examining the claim is a much better approach.

    An approach that I used to examine the Watchtowers claims about Armageddon.

    My efforts paid off.

    I'm much happier now.

    .

    Revelation 16:15-16

    "Look! I am coming as a thief. Happy is the one that stays awake and keeps his outer garments, that he may not walk naked and people look upon his shamefulness." And they gathered them together to the place that is called in Hebrew Har–Ma·ged´on.

    .

    abe

  • LoveUniHateExams
    LoveUniHateExams

    'who am I? Im just an ordinary human...' and 'I have to be honest, you make my hair stand on end by your thinking'

    So sad.

    God or no God, we have to rely on our own thinking - if we don't, we're screwed.

    If I left everything to Jehovah ... nothing would get done!

  • flipper
    flipper

    " I just feel jealous for Jehovah God .... " ??????? " " You sound too intellectual ..... I know you are not encouraging me to do that , but it's what you imply..... " . Wow, you got a " live " one here, don't you ? This JW lady is so indoctrinated she can't see straight. If she only knew that being INTELLECTUAL is NOT a bad thing- but she's taught from the WT Society that gaining outside or " worldly " non-Witness knowledge IS a bad thing !

    I don't know if anything will make a dent in this lady's cult controlled mind. You handled it brilliantly though, I thought you really said the right things to get her to think, but it seems like she was in defense mode or making excuses for everything the WT Society says or does. It drives me crazy when JW's say that they have the " truth " - then when we try to say " I AM looking ino the truth " , they say " you know what I mean ! " I had a JW I once knew do that to me several years ago in a conversation. I just kept saying " I HAVE the truth ! " and " I AM the truth ! I'm a very truthful person ! " It blew her mind and frustrated her that she couldn' get me to admit JW's have " the truth ". Good job buddy, you handled it well, Peace out, Mr. Flipper

  • AlphaMan
    AlphaMan

    The conversation was one of those typical JW cliche ones. Preprogrammed responses galore.

    .

    I agree with this.

    A person who really doesn't believe the JW religion is "the truth" should really be careful not to give any indication that they are acknowledging and/or confirming to any JW that the Watchtower religion is "the truth". If any JW wants to play "the truth" card, you actually have the advantage to mention all the changes in the truth, therefore those truths were lies, therefore we have no reason to believe "new truths" are truths. Of course the JW preprogrammed response is "new light". You shut that down with "sorry, but that new light BS doesn't cut it!". Then again, those who are trying to keep from getting DF'd for family reasons may simply agree using anti-theocratic theocratic warfare statements.

  • dark angle
    dark angle

    From you discussion you posted, I think your friend would do well to learn that sincerity is not the same thing as humility. And a person can be sincere while simultaneously being arrogant.

    Arrogance: offensive display of superiority or self-importance; overbearing pride. Claiming to have abilities or knowledge that one doesn't actually have.

    Just because she has good intentions does not mean she has good facts. Sincerity is not a metric for determining the truth of a claim.

    Nice! thats something to think about. Reminds me of another quote:

    “The evil that is in the world almost always comes of ignorance, and good intentions may do as much harm as malevolence if they lack understanding.” -Albert Campus

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