How would you define RELIGION, and why?

by Fernando 77 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Sea Breeze

  Is there someone who really understands it [information], and can explain it so us lay-people can see where the issue is?

  @TonusOH

  I think you know what information is the same as Jeffro does. I think anyone who has ever left a note for their kids to do something understands it as well. A rebellious kid might try to play dumb and say they didn't understand that the information was left by his parent or was too confusing, or didn't know it was directed at him, etc.

  But, wise parents won't buy what the rebelliouis child is selling & will try to get to the root of the problem and try to get the child to own up to the feigned ignorance and restore the relationahsip. God is no different.
  
  
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  TonusOH

  "You know what I mean" is not an explanation. What do you mean when you speak of the information in a cell? Is it a complicated explanation? Is it confusing? Are you not sure what it means? It's an important starting point, if we are to understand the objection.
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  Jeffro

  Sea Breeze’s position, a position common among uneducated or deliberately ignorant creationists, is that ‘Information is non material’. This kind of thinking is required for their superstitions about things like ‘prayer’ supposedly conveying information to (or in) an imaginary ‘spirit realm’ with no actual means of transmission. Back in reality, information is never independent of a physical medium.

  Sea Breeze rather inelegantly offered ‘the number 3’ as an example of ‘information’ and then clumsily offered that inanimate objects could never ‘encode information’. I should not have to explain the quite obvious contradiction …
• 

  Jeffro

  While the above is far from "proof". There aren't any good explanations to explain these facts away.

  The only correct part of that is that it’s far from ‘proof’. It is entirely unremarkable that a Jewish sect started around the teachings of an itinerant rabbi (though anything he actually said is unknown and cannot be separated from stories made up about him decades later). The beliefs that he was magical or that he was resurrected were likely enhanced by an eclipse around the time of his execution. People in the first century also believed that Nero would return from the dead (Nero Redivivus) making the story of Jesus’ resurrection even less remarkable for the time. When early Christian expectations (that Jesus would return within a generation) were shown to be an obvious failure, they doubled down and made up new interpretations, just as 19th century Christians did after the Great Disappointment. See also ‘cargo cults’ for how easily such superstitions develop into sects.
  
• 

  Sea Breeze

  @Jeffro -
  

  With all due respect, you have droned on for pages of posts without saying anything in support of your position. While your posts have plenty of denunciation, ad hominum attacks, and other logical fallacies, you haven't offered EVEN ONE example of complex (or even simple for that matter) information being generated by inanimate substances.... like chemicals, rocks, gasses etc.

  Surely you must realize this total lack of support for your position? All you have to do is provide an example. Is that too much to ask? Is your worldview so fragile that to even contemplate evidence (or lack thereof) is an existential threat to you personally?

  I gave you 12 reasons for my position. What's the hold up on your end?
• 

  DesirousOfChange

  Religion:

  An organization that offers its members the mythical "person" to blame for their own shortfalls and failures in life; and the fantasy of cheating death and being rewarded with a significantly better future provided that they follow their every changing rules exclusively.
• 

  Jeffro

  Sea Breeze:

  I gave you 12 reasons for my position.

  You didn’t. You listed some elements of a narrative without any evidence of any supernatural event. You tediously parrot creationist drivel and ignore anything inconvenient to your view. Just stop while you’re behind.
• 

  Jeffro

  1. Jesus died by crucifixion.

  Probably. It is possible that an eclipse at or around the time of his death may have enhanced superstitions that Jesus was in some way divine.
  

  2. He was buried.

  According to the narrative, he was placed in a tomb, not buried. What actually happened to his body is unknown.
  

  3. His death caused the disciples to despair and lose hope.

  Amazing. Sad event made people sad.🙄 This is just padding to get the special number 12.
  

  4. The tomb was empty (the most contested).

  No actual evidence for this apart from contradictory stories from decades later.
  

  5. The disciples had experiences which they believed were literal appearances of the risen Jesus (the most important proof).

  That people ‘believed’ something isn’t ‘proof’ of anything, and the details of what they believed happened are only in available in embellished stories written decades later. Even in the stories, the disciples don’t initially recognise the person as Jesus. 🙄
  

  6. The disciples were transformed from doubters to bold proclaimers.

  Wow. Superstitious people became convinced of something. Many things were taken as portents at the time so an eclipse, earthquake, or even a shadow could have made them think Jesus was back.
  

  7. The resurrection was the central message.

  Arguably, but the purported value of the ransom was really the more important aspect. The claim that Jesus was resurrected actually diminishes the value of the ‘sacrifice’, since he supposedly got a massive reward for a comparatively bad weekend.
  

  8. They preached the message of Jesus’ resurrection in Jerusalem.

  Sect based on superstition spread in a time when superstition was even more rife than it is now. Nothing remarkable about this.

  9. The Church was born and grew.

  Sect based on superstition developed further. Still nothing remarkable about this.
  

  10. Orthodox Jews who believed in Christ made Sunday their primary day of worship.

  Entirely wrong. Sunday became the primary day of Christian worship many years later due to ‘pagan’ influence when Christianity had spread beyond a Jewish religion and the majority of Christians were gentiles.
  

  11. James was converted to the faith when he saw the resurrected Jesus (James was a family skeptic).

  This is a tradition only.
  

  12. Paul was converted to the faith (Paul was an outsider skeptic and opposer).

  Paul’s version of his conversion contradicts the version in Acts, particularly the details about where he went immediately after, indicating that at least one version is unreliable. JWs (and other groups) today tell stories of formerly ‘violent opposers’ who converted, so Paul’s actual conversion to Christianity isn’t remarkable. Paul reports having visions on more than one occasion, at times not even knowing whether he was ‘in the spirit’, (and also alludes to ‘a thorn in the flesh’) which could suggest an underlying psychiatric or other condition (e.g., epilepsy, ergotism, syphillis etc) that could exacerbate superstitious beliefs.