Escaping Indoctrination - Faith Isn't a Virtue.

by cofty 144 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Finkelstein

    The WTS. creates faith from and out of people by using false but alluring doctrines then exploit them to cultivate more

    followers and distribute their literature.

    Putting faith upon men's concocted lies is never going to benefit humanity, for those lies were mostly devised to help and

    support the organization (men in power ) from which the lies were created.

  • Island Man
    Island Man

    Faith is not a virtue. Faith is a vulnerability that leaves one open to being conned. Faith is a potent weapon used by religous charlatans to guilt others into believing them. Religion invented the concept of faith to counter its obvious weakness of lack of evidence.

  • cofty

    Its interesting that MrHome and Villagegirl feel the need to change the meaning of faith I described in my OP.

    As I said earlier faith in others is a virtue. I trust my wife and children and some of my friends. I know based on experience that they would never deliberately do me harm. This happy belief is based on evidence but it is also just a good way to live. Being trusting makes for better relationships and a happier life than being cynical, jealous and suspicious.

    This is NOT the definition of faith I am criticising.

    Neither am I talking about mrhome's pedantic definition of faith that equates faith with everything short of mathematical proof.

    Villagegirl - Oubliette has answered your points. Science never demands faith. It gives Nobel prizes to anybody who can show where it has got important things wrong.

    Please try to resist the urge to insult me every time you reply. Thanks.

    Religion makes a virtue out of believing things on insufficient evidence and even in spite of evidence to the contrary. Doubt is considered to be a problem to be overcome - not with more evidence - but by more "faith".

    It is this mentality that we should reject. Whether that leaves us with a belief in god or not isn't the point.

  • snare&racket

    Never again will I believe without evidence. It was a painful and costly indoctrination that I was raised in, but it was a potent lesson for the rest of my life..

    'I believe because I have faith!' ..... not truth, but hope.

    I was a JW for 25 years, I know what 'evidence' to a christian was, I also know what thin air is.

  • KateWild

    Rational people must demand objective evidence for everything they are asked to believe. "Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence".-cofty

    • Evidence, what exactly is it?-Oub

    Oub makes a good point.

    Some rational people are satisfied with evidence that others are not satisfied with. I have satisfying evidence in nature, and chemistry that there is a Creator. It's just more likely IMO. I could say it's irrational for some to ignore this evidence, but many just don't accept the evidence the same way, and that's their opinion.

    Having faith is about not having all the evidence but having a lot of evidence. The danger lies in blind faith, WT taught us we did not have blind faith, but we did. Well admittedly I asked too many questions so I was considered "spiritually immature", but those who obeyed without questions or doubts, had blind faith.

    Kate xx

  • Pistoff

    From Mr. Home:

    "On the other hand, you need a working model in your head of how the universe operates as you face each day. Some of it is based on my own personal experience. Some of it is based on that taught to me by others. Would you have me ignore 3000+ years of wisdom on how to interact with my neighbors and the universe around me?"

    This is a position in favor of myth, which western societies have lots of but won't recognize; as witnesses, our myths included the 'anointed' leading us as a class and as the faithful slave, that we refuse blood (we don't; we use dozens of blood products), that we are morally superior, that we alone have the truth, that God revealed the importance of his name to us, etc.

    Myth is a way of seeing the world, of making sense of it.

    In western cultures, notably the 3 Abrahamic faiths, there is the insistence that the myth is true and historic, something not necessarily present in other religions.

    Thus the point of the original post; if you don't believe it is literally true and have 'faith' that it is true, you are seen as deficient.

  • Pistoff

    From V:

    "Conceputalizing a non material unseen universe in your head is not a "virtue"

    nobody who believes in God, thinks its a virtue, its an idea,

    a idea of love, of grace, of hope, of possibility in the unknown.

    Its this kind of thinking that drives artists, musicians, explorers

    and all creative people, its a vision. You must not have a creative

    bone in your body to live in your 'Flat Earth' mentality,"

    I am not sure what you are trying to say; are you saying that artists, musicians and explorers are driven by their faith in God?

    Imagining the unknown or creating art out of one's imagination is not the same as asserting an all powerful god and calling deficient those who won't, can't or don't have 'faith' that he exists.

    (One can make the case that the all powerful God is a product of very fertile imaginations though.)

    Being driven by the quest for something spiritual, a desire for connection with other people, is not some exclusive trait owned by the 'faithful'.

    This sounds like the argument that morals come from religion, that without religion we would only be animals.

  • Laika

    As the UN says, I believe that 'All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.'

    I don't think I could provide objective evidence to back up this claim.

  • Finkelstein

    Putting faith in super natural forces is where the really human folly begins.

    No ? take at look back throughout human history

  • Phizzy

    We are in danger as usual in a debate such as this of drowning in a Sea of Semantics.

    Both "Faith" and "Belief" have a number of definitions and are used in a variety of ways.

    The faith that Cofty is warning about in the O.P is holding beliefs and accepting teachings without evidence, or in spite of much countervailing evidence, such faith is held by believers to be a virtue.

    It is not.

    It is lazy, irresponsible and too often it is downright dangerous.

    For those reasons such faith deserves no respect whatsoever, it should be put to the severest of tests, and it should be exposed, lampooned and most importantly, ignored.

    Such faith is totally meaningless.

Share this