Escaping Indoctrination - Faith Isn't a Virtue.

by cofty 144 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  mrhhome

  I challenge the OP on a couple of different fronts.

  (1) What is wrong with having faith in something that you may not be able to prove? Contrary to your assertion otherwise, I see nothing wrong with it if something good comes out of it. Now when it is twisted to serve the selfish ends of a few at the expense of others, it obviously has become a bad thing.

  (2) Do you believe that there are natural forces in the universe that man still does not understand? If so, are you going to deride somebody for their (admittedly speculative) belief in what that force is?

  An analogy. It is common for an engineer to encoutner solutions developed by non-degreed folk who provide an explanation absolutely lacking in solid physical principles. Consequently, the engineer decides that their explanation is foolish, ignores their solution, and screws up everything in the process. Who is more foolish? The people who developed a solution but did not understand how it worked, or the engineer who understood all the physics but undid a working solution?
• 

  DJS

  Cofty,

  Ditto about exposing one's self to the very best arguments for and against personal beliefs. Anyone who has obtained a master's degree has likely completed a thesis or major research paper that requires something called a review of the literature. A PhD typically requires it. And by a review of the literature it isn't talking about Harry Potter or Wikipedia; it is a requirement that the student closely evaluate all of the academic 'evidence' that exists on the question or hyothesis they are trying to answer or address. This should include all of the data, not just that which supports the student's premise. I've referred to it previously as a 360 degree analysis of a subject.

  That is the only way someone will truly learn a subject, and it certainly is the only way someone can learn it well enough to teach it to others at the college level (you may get away with it in high school or grade school). But it requires an open mind and a true desire to find the truth, or as much as possible, about a topic. Dubs and ex-Dubs, from what I can see from being on this site for about a year, don't seem to understand that. The same mind-set that trapped them in the Borg seems to follow them along in life. Or leads them rather. Snare and Oubilette, who I understand is a science teacher, know this well. It also takes humility, as you often find that cherished 'beliefs' fall by the wayside when the stark cold facts of a matter are revealed.

  All of us should have been humbled by our Borg experience. What we thought with all of our minds and hearts turned out to be pure rubbish. It's a shame we don't see more humility and desire to truly learn something on this site.
• 

  Twitch

  Is faith a virtue? Is atheism?

  I think what a person does and how they treat others is what really matters. Especially when there's disagreement. How else do you measure tolerance, understanding and what may really be considered virtues?
• 

  DisArmed

  On my way out, faith was difficult for me to realize is a man made "virtue" to make one feel guilty or inadequate. If you don't have faith in, fill in the blank, you must not be a good human being or you're not blessed or, you know, blah blah. I used to think blind faith was essential and desireable. When I lost faith in Wally World I wanted to put that faith in something else but for the first time I realized that kind of faith is not only undesireable but should be avoided at all cost. I don't need that kind of faith! I do have faith, but a different kind. I have faith in my children, my friends, and myself.
• 

  DJS

  Well stated DisArmed,

  I have that kind of faith in my friends and children. I would give my life for my best friend, without hesitation, and I think he knows that. But faith in something imaginary, make believe, irrational, that has done nothing but trap me for most of my youth??? Never again.
• 

  mrhhome

  Oubliette asks good questions.

  Approaching the matter from a different direction, we all encounter uncertainty in our life. When faced with this, we make decision about what lies inside that uncertainty and proceed appropiately. Sometimes, it is easy to test our theories about what lies inside that area of uncertainty and make immediate course corrections if needed. Other times, we never completely resolve the uncertainty and are left hoping that we made a good decision.
• 

  cofty

  I have faith in my children, my friends, and myself. - Disarmed

  Yes of course.

  Faith in the sense of trust in another person or object, based on experience is a virtue. It is the opposite of cynicism that cripples relationships. Expecting the best of others and overlooking their faults is a good thing.

  Mrhome - Surely the honest and mature way to deal with questions for which we don't have sufficient evidence is to say "I don't know". Pretending to ourselves and others to know things we cannot know is not a virtue.

  The same mind-set that trapped them in the Borg seems to follow them along in life. - DJS

  Yes, it took me 9 years after leaving the Borg to realise that my error was far more fundamental than I had thought it was.

  Is faith a virtue? Is atheism? - Twitch

  Atheism is simply and admission that you are unconvinced by the extraordinary claims of theism.
• 

  cofty

  we all encounter uncertainty in our life - mrhome

  Yes. So we arrive at tentative conclusions while searching for more evidence.

  Faith in the context of the OP is nothing like that at all.
• 

  mrhhome

  Cofty,

  Surely the honest and mature way to deal with questions for which we don't have sufficient evidence is to say "I don't know". Pretending to ourselves and others to now things we cannot know is not a virtue.

  Yes and no. I would argue that blind, unquestioning faith can be dangerous. As an example, the JW willingness to shun family based on a twisted interpretation of scripture. In this case, they have suspended their natural sense of morality to satisfy blind faith. In such circumstances, acknowledging some uncertainty would obviously be a good thing.

  On the other hand, you need a working model in your head of how the universe operates as you face each day. Some of it is based on my own personal experience. Some of it is based on that taught to me by others. Would you have me ignore 3000+ years of wisdom on how to interact with my neighbors and the universe around me?

  [Sorry for all the edits.]
• 

  mrhhome

  Crofty,

  Faith in the context of the OP is nothing like that at all.

  I am not sure that it that far from it.