End shunning or lose tax free status

by kneehighmiah 62 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  villagegirl

  Some who post here misrepresent their 'enlightenment.' They found watchtower teaching and practice defective after they abandoned the group's behavior standards. Some of those who post here make youtube videos that are less than factual. You hurt yourself. No informed witness will take you seriously. I don't take you seriously, and I have serious issues with the Watchtower. by OLD GOAT

  Old Goat: What are your own motives? Truth ?

  While I agree that atheists and mockers and people here for the sole purpose

  of stirring the the pot and creating outrage ( even by their avatars )

  may harm the credibility of this forum, however, the forum is attempting to allow

  Freedom of Speech, something you claim to value, but that is denied

  to you by the Watchtower.

  As an Elder and the man in the suit and tie on the platform,

  do you dare to Speak Truth, to those in Power ?

  No instead, you cower in fear of the eight magical men,

  and vote like a robot, a corporate, Yes Man.

  This is not how a righteous man behaves. Read Hebrews 11.

  Participants here include, children, teenagers, and senior citizens,

  the forum has divergent educational levels, some barely literate,

  their lives stunted, by ridiculous WT rules on higher education.

  There are people here who see the "organization" is not

  representing God and who conscientiously face a Crisis of Conscience

  ( reference deliberate) and instead of enabling the WT as you are,

  and living a double life ( like being here) these people, have the moral courage

  and spiritual honesty and personal bravery to stand up to power,

  like a full grown man, or woman, facing down the lack of real

  love or kindness exhibited by self righteous witnesess who waste their lives,

  underlining watchtowers and sitting in meetings feeling self righteous

  and really doing nothing at all for widows and orphans

  and their own communities, leading useless, wasted lives, in the worship,

  not of God, but of an "organization" and the worship, and I assure you,

  it is worship, of the "Governing Body" a group who might as well

  be running North Korea, the similarities are so striking.
• 

  Vidiot

  Apognophos - "I think a number of people on here have acknowledged that they were DFed and didn't learn TTATT for years afterward, at which point they joined this forum."

  Not the majority, from what I've seen.

  OldGoat - "Some who post here misrepresent their 'enlightenment.' They found watchtower teaching and practice defective after they abandoned the group's behavior standards."

  Wow...

  ...how reassuring to see the WTS's lessons in knee-jerk judgementalism are still alive and kicking.

  Good thing you're here to remind us of how morally bereft XJWs really were/are; we might have forgotten.
• 

  Doubting Bro

  • Apognophos - Yeah, I know that's why they changed the announcement. I'm not sure if one could make a case for slander legally or not (US specific) and given the courts favoring religious organizations it would be an uphill climb. However, making any announcement about an individual is a specific order to shun the person. It's important to note that shunning is not an optional activity but one that is mandated by their own literature. If a person refuses to shun, they can in turn be shunned. That person's marriage could potentially break up, lose employment and a host of other negative side effects as a direct result of the announcement. However, it would probably cost you more to litigate the issue than the actual damages. They will never drop shunning because that's the biggest way they keep people in, by holding their loved ones hostage.
• 

  Band on the Run

  Taxes and religion were the first subjects to be debated concerning Freedom of Religion. James Madison wrote a famous Remonstrance against tax monies going to any religion. His words are often quoted to this day by both sides of the Supreme Court. The case law repeatedly discusses entanglemeent in religion by government. Enforcement of who is a religion, doing charitable deeds, financial methods used would place the government exactly where Americans don't want the government. Most people who are against the Establishment Clause want their own church to receive all sorts of benefits. There is no benefit in the long run.

  II can't believe I am writing this but running to the govt to right every perceived wrong is silly and counterproductive. If I have to choose dragging down the Witnesses or upholding the principles that have allowed America to exist long before Independence, i choose the govt. Principles are important.
• 

  westiebilly11

  It stands to reason that many here left via df..as often the ttatt can only be found once one is out and free of control over what ones can and cannot read...

  ---
• 

  yadda yadda 2

  Old Goat is right that nobody can force someone else to associate with you or speak to you, and quite right that a few disfellowshipped persons are indeed right-royal *ssholes that nobody would probably want to speak to anyway, but he forgets that Jehovah's Witnesses do not have an individual choice of conscience in the matter, with the whole congregation (including children against parents, vice versa, etc) being mandatorily required by the Watchtower leadership to totally shun the expelled one, regardless of the 'offence'. And this due to a deliberately twisted policy that obfuscates relevant scriptures.

  He appears to be unaware that it is entirely unscriptural to fully shun someone, ie, not even speak to them, except someone actively and deliberately preaching anti-Christ apostacy (John 3).

  The correct scriptural injunction is to only stop associating socially (eating with, etc) with sinners and disobedient ones, not completely shun them as dead - 2 Thessalonians 3: 14 & 15.

  1 Cor 5 and 2 Thess 3 are essentially the same policy. Paul simply never meant for sinners to be totally shunned per John 3.

  The Watchtower Society tries to get around that by creating an artificial distinction between 2 Thess 3 and 1 Cor 5, and marginalising 2 Thess 3 by applying it only to non "serious" sins. Wikipaedia:

  Marking[ edit ]

  Members who persist in a course considered scripturally wrong after repeated counsel by elders, [17] but who are not guilty of something for which they could be disfellowshipped, [17] can be "marked", based on Jehovah's Witnesses' interpretation of 2 Thessalonians 3:14. Though not shunned, "marked" individuals are looked upon as bad association and social interaction outside of formal worship settings is generally curtailed. This action is intended to "shame" the person into following a particular course of action. [17] "Marking" is indicated by means of a talk given at the Service Meeting outlining the shameful course, but without explicitly naming any particular individual. Members who know whose actions are being discussed may then consider the individual "marked".

  Good little article here that sums up what is so very wrong with the Society's trying to ring-fence and ignore 2 Thess 3, from the website http://www.jwreform.org/shunning.html:

  The Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses asserts that the action Paul calls for here is a complete shunning of the individual who has been "handed over to Satan." Is this really the case? Further discussion of what it means not to "mix in company" (sunanamignusthai) with a person like this is given in Paul's second letter to the Thessalonians:

  "But if anyone is not obedient to our word through this letter, keep this one marked, stop associating with him (sunanamignusthai), that he may become ashamed. And yet do not be considering him as an enemy, but continue admonishing him as a brother" (2 Thess. 3:14-15).

  Paul uses the same word here as in 1 Corinthians and makes it clear that not to mix in company with someone does not mean a complete shunning, for he urges his readers to keep admonishing the one with whom they are not to associate. In order to do that, they would have to speak to that person. Congregation members, therefore, would limit their association with one who has been "handed over to Satan," not enjoying a meal of fellowship with that person, but would not shun them completely. The Governing Body, however, to avoid this obvious conclusion deliberately created a new category of congregational discipline called "marking" to which they could apply 2 Thessalonians and separate it from 1 Corinthians. However, there is no other place in the Bible that speaks of "marking." It is a concoction made for the sole purpose of explaining away 2 Thessalonians 3:14-15, so that it could not be applied to disfellowshipped ones.

  Furthermore, 1 Corinthians 5 and 2 Thessalonians 3 only apply to gross sins, not for merely expressing doubts (Jude 22) or disagreeing with certain disputable or unconvincing teachings of the organisation when that person is otherwise a moral person professing Christian faith.

  Basically, Jehovah's Witnesses have been hoodwinked, duped by their leadership to totally and utterly shun all "disfellowshipped" JW's for anything the Society deems is a disfellowshipping offence using a false interpretation of scripture.

  This total shunning policy, especially of persons who merely disagree with certain teachings, is one of the foremost traits of high-control, religious cults. The Watchtower organisation will always deservedly be lambasted as a 'cult' cult as long as their current shunning policy remains.
• 

  Apognophos

  Good argument, yadda yadda 2.
• 

  Old Goat

  I agree that Paul's injunction was to treat those expelled from the fellowship as a man of the nations. Since we're not to abuse strangers, the current practice among Jehovah's Witnesses is in some respects extra-Biblical. I never saw shunning as anything but my personal choice, which isn't "recomended" behavior, but was and is how I act.

  That said, I can't think of many who weren't disfellowshipped for good cause. Without the biblical injuctions, I still wouldn't speak to most of them. Forcing someone to speak to us who detests what we stand for is a form of self-justification and abuse of our fellows. It's morally wrong. But then, for some, neither morals nor human rights matter.

  Another factor here is that many who are disfellowshipped take up "an apostate stance." Many of the claims made are without foundation, especially those based on 'history.' That's one of the reasons i continue to recommend Schulz and de Vienne's books.

  Is the Watchtower abusive? Yes. The powers that be are a self-entitled bunch who see themselves as a sort of collective pope. They know in their heart of hearts that they only control people by intimidation and by mis-defining the faithful slave as a prophetic body instead of the mere illustration Jesus intended. You see this in the current donation arragement letter if you read it carefully.

  I reiterate that most here are here because they chose not to live by the standards Witnesses accept. Most here came to the so-called truth about the truth late, and many of them belive any negative claim uncritcally because their feelings are hurt and they want to strike back and feel in some way justified. That's not an uncommon reaction to being caught with your hand in the cookie jar. But it is immature.

  If you wish to compel other to talk to you, how do you differ from the Watchtower which also uses compulsion in place of Bible teaching?
• 

  kneehighmiah

  I still think you're making generalization old goat. I'm an active witness still "qualified" to serve. I disagree with the WT on doctrinal and moral grounds. I also disagree with how people are Disfellowshipped even if they are repentant. If a guy fingered his girlfriend twice in a year, he would be disfellowshipped. Perhaps he went to the elders because he felt guilty. He should have just kept his mouth shut And continued fingering her, he would have been better off. Disfellowshipping people for self reported sins is ridiculous. Even more ridiculous to shun someone for fingering their girlfriend. Paul only told the Corinthians to expel a man who was practicing wickedness not even heard among the nations. Child molestation and similar things would qualify someone as wicked. Struggling with an alcohol probkem, nit so much. Especially if that person is seeking help. However warcthower policy leaves no room for a relapse, which many people have.
• 

  Doubting Bro

  Old Goat - take me as an example. I learned the TTATT when I was serving as an elder, stepped down to "care for my family" and still attend meetings. I haven't done anything against the WT rules with the exception of using curse words (which I did when I believed) and letting my kids play youth sports. I also now don't shun DF'ed ones, and am breaking the biggest WT rule of all, I don't believe they are God's Organization and am therefore an apostate.

  Since I haven't shared my feelings with anyone at the KH, they continue to speak with me. If those thoughts were made known, of course I'd be shunned. That's fine, I don't really care about those folks and am already not given much attention since I went from active elder to guy who looks angry during the meetings.

  What I'm most concerned about is the elders interferring in my marriage and telling the rest of my extended family that I'm evil and threatening them with explusion should they communicate with me if and when I decide to make my feelings public. I've seen too many marriages broken up over this stupid cult. That's the part that really burns me up. Also the double standard because the JWs will tell you that you shouldn't have to choose between your family and your religion when they are recruiting folks from other religions but when you leave, that's clearly not the case.

  I've read all the arguments on the advantages of providing exemption from taxes for religious institutions and while I respect Mr. Madison's take on most things, I believe he is wrong on that point. They are all businesses and should be treated as such. Not banned, not regulated just not given the unjust preferential tax treatment. Or maybe I should just start my own religion and leech off of society too!