WHO..decided the Bible canon?

by gumby 65 Replies latest jw friends

  • gumby
    gumby

    SixofNine...Let it go. Or go insane.

    Bad advise dude! What is wrong with researching to the best of my ability to make an informed choice.
    Your talking about "letting go".....of what?,..... my concern if I should put my hopes and trust in something for the rest of my life?

    Bluesapphire: I went to the site you listed and read some, and bookmarked it so I can review all of it. Thanks for your hard work too.

    SS...good stuff. I like your sincerness too. However....you say people can find God without the bible. That's true. Don't you think if it were left to man to find God himself that there would be more opinions about God than there is now, with all the 1000's of religions?
    We would STILL be in the dark as to what is ABSOLUTE TRUTH.(AT LEAST..CLOSE TRUTH)

    I did something a little crazy. I went out to my garage and got down my OLD "is the bible really the word of God" book.(Just to see what 'Freddie' had to say about this subject)
    The 'IS' book totally ignorned the Catholics involment with the development of the bible...(no surprise)...however..I thought about what was said in it about the THEME that is conveyed in the Bible all thru it.

    That THEME pointed to a savior throughout it's contents.....from the LAW to a redeemer...CHRIST.

    Do any of you guys feel there is any truth to this? A THEME THAT IS HARMONIOUS THROUGHOUT OVER MANY CENTURIES? Or.....did the writers...MAKE IT harmonious to make their religion SHINE?

  • Satanus
    Satanus
    Don't you think if it were left to man to find God himself that there would be more opinions about God than there is now, with all the 1000's of religions?

    This is a major truth. Can you accept it? After all, even the bible allows that god could be all things to everyone. And so, if god had a relationship, one on one with everyone individually, each would see god differently. Is that diversity wrong? Is uniformity of view the most important, or having something going w god more important?

    If all are gods kids, then cannot we be ourselves while each having our own relationship w the higher power, to the limits of our own abilities, in our own ways? Would a god who loves his kids not welcome different types of psyches w different needs? I think this is where faith and trust in the supreme one can help us:)

    When john doe visits w god and sees a golden old man w white hair, and in my visits w god, i see a golden smiling guy about 2 feet tall, and sally sees a majestic queen w black hair down to her ankles, i don't see how the differences are anything to qwibble about.

    SS

    He who doesn't live his faith doesn't have any.

    Changed the word unity to uniformity.

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    The reason things of a spiritual nature appear differently to different people, is because it filters through the mind/brain. The brain enterprets input, relating it to patterns it knows, and so distorts its pureness. As long as we are in these bodies, i think that can't be avoided.

    SS

  • gumby
    gumby

    SS: After all, even the bible allows that god could be all things to everyone. And so, if god had a relationship, one on one with everyone individually, each would see god differently. Is that diversity wrong? Is unity of view the most important, or having something going w god more important?

    Gawd, I would love to believe this! That would be nice!
    Still many questions would remain that only the Bible seems to answer.

    What happens after death? What is his purpose for us, etc. etc.(sorry if I sound like the title to one of the 192 page books)

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    I'm not necesarily asking you to believe what i write. Just think about it.

    What happens after death? What is his purpose for us

    You are broadening your original question now. There are many other sources for possible answers to these questions.

    On the first question, there has been much written in eatern holy books as well. Modern researchers also have explored afterdeath. For instance monroe institute, through altered brain wave states has looked into it. People who had near death experiences (nde's) have brought back reports. Also psychotherapists who do regressions have gotten into this. All of these sources are on the net.

    These same sources have answers to your second question as well.

    It would take some time for you to check out other sources, but it would be worth you while, IMO.

    SS

  • gumby
    gumby

    SS:I'm not necesarily asking you to believe what i write. Just think about it.

    I will think about it. And..don't worry about you being the product of what I believe. You have some good perspectives as do others.

    All I can do SS, is do all the research I can, and come to my own conclusion. Much of what we all believe is from someone elses viewpoint. Thanks

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine
    Bad advise dude! What is wrong with researching to the best of my ability to make an informed choice.
    Your talking about "letting go".....of what?,..... my concern if I should put my hopes and trust in something for the rest of my life?

    Bad advice eh? I disagree. How can you go wrong by letting it go? The research, well that's the sad part... you've done the majority of it, but you don't want to quit clinging to the teats of 3000 year old goat-herders. Kinda gross and sad if you think about it . As to "putting your hopes and trust in something (the bible) for the rest of your life", I pray to an unspecific god that you are not that stupid.

    Actually, your words in the forum already show you are not that stupid. Hopefully you are not that frightened of reality. Mommie and daddy and society and the fact that the catholic church exist are not intelligent reasons to believe the bible is of a supernatural source.

  • willy_think
    willy_think

    Hi gumby,
    i thought i would respond to your thread, i really have nothing to add to bluesapphire's explanation. it's more personal to me as a pivotal point in understanding Christianity and my journey to my lord and God. at one point i accepted the bible as inspired by God, Why? honestly, because someone i respected and trust told me it was just like EVERYONE who believes in the bible. i felt a great need for a personal relationship with Jesus, i read the bible over and over old and new together flipping back and forth. when i realized everyone who thinks the bible is inspired thinks that based on the authority of the catholic church. i had to ask who the hell these people were who took books out of it? do i recognize there authority, i couldn't and don't. that meant more books to read, so i read them and came to believe the books were cut because they teach catholic doctrine. At the same time i read the church fathers, Martian Luther and Calvin if you haven't read the church fathers yet i think it's time you did. any way i came to understand Jesus didn't give us a book, he gave us a Kingdom on earth he, gave us the Church, the church gave us Tradition of which the bible is a very important part. i read a lot of twisted posts as to the nature of the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist, it is a tuff one to get your head around. but when i came to understand, i had such a hunger for that sacrament, for the ultimate personal relationship with the lord. i soon came to believe that the Church was founded by Jesus and i received the sacraments of reconciliation, first communion and conformation. for me it was a no brainier i believed in Jesus, so i believed in the bible, so i believed the church had the God given authority to proclaim inspired scripture, so i believed the church was the one founded by Jesus and the one the gates of hell could not prevail over, so i couldn't run from it any more.

    There is an old saying, that at least in my case is true: how do you make a man catholic? You get him to stop hating the church.

    After all, even the bible allows that god could be all things to everyone.
    i don't think it dose allow that. ex: God is not the source of hate and can't be for anyone.

    The Great and Powerful Oz:

    pay no attention to the man behind the curtain
  • gumby
    gumby

    Hey Sixer: but you don't want to quit clinging to the teats of 3000 year old goat-herders.

    Says who? It's not that I WANT to cling to anything. What I do want to know is the Truth about this subject.

    It is a little scary, I will admit, in entertaining the thought that the bible COULD be bogus. It's scary because it is like the feeling we all had when we came to the realization the Dubs were a crock.

    You believe in something for so long and then your world is turned upsidedown.

    A year or so ago I had a long E-Mail debate with "Francois" on this subject.
    My argument at the time was 'why would God put us on this planet and then bail on us with no direction....if the bible were not from him.

    I STILL feel this way. No direction from God dosen't seem reasonable to me. However.....the questions still stand in my mind....'why wouldn't he be more clear on WHO he is and what he expects of us?
    Why is he so unclear to us that we have the religious mess we have?

    Many other inconsistancies have me wondering about many things.
    If I were to come to the conclusion the Bible is bogus...it would solve many questions and at the same
    time....create MORE questions.

    "Mankinds Search for God"...the most REASONABLE title on a book the Dubs have ever had.

    ......"but you don't want to quit clinging to the teats of 3000 year old goat-herders".
    You always crack me up! Thanks

  • William Penwell
    William Penwell
    With all due respect, William Powell, the canon was NOT decided at the Council of Nicea. The Gospel of Thomas was not excluded because it was a "fifth" gospel. The Gospel of John is not a "synoptic" gospel and your statement that the four gospels were decided upon because of the number 4 sounds quirky to me too.

    Where, may I ask, did you obtain your information?

    It sounds like you are so sure of yourself. I was recalling what I have read and seen on the subject and as soon as I find my reference sources I would be glad to pas them on. I did not make up the following as you suggested.

    The more I read of the early Church movement the more and more I think that we are only told what they the Church wants us to believe. I apologies if don't look to the Church as my authority on this matter. I have no faith in any Church that deviates and suppresses the truth. The following is some examples of what I am talking about but I don't expect you to believe what I am saying.

    From the book, Honest to Jesus by Robert W. Funk;

    Marcion, a wealthy shipowner who organized his own Christian sect, gathered into his Bible only those scriptures that supported his theological position. After coming to Rome from Pontus in Asia Minor (ca 140-150), Marcion promulgated a collection of "scriptures" consisting of the Gospel of Luke and ten letters of Paul, all heavily edited. The lesson was not lost on the later church. Both Marcion and the Church excluded books if they were deemed to deviate from desirable doctrine or practice. Marcion is also know to have taken scissors and paste to the documents he chose, He cut out parts of Luke and the Pauline letters that he didn't like. We do not know how often that same approach was used prior to the fixing of the text in the fourth and fifth centuries.

    It is well known that Irenaeus, a heresy hunter who flourished towards the close of the second century in Gaul, insisted on the fourfold gospel. His argument - that since there were four winds and four cardinal directions there should be four gospels - was specious, of course.

    The Gospel of John is not a "synoptic" gospel
    I stand to be corrected on this point. The first 3 gospels are what they refer to as the "synoptic" gospels and the book of John the spiritual gospel.

    "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God, and through him were all things made." These words of the opening prologue of the fourth gospel provide a clue to the nature of this work: it stands apart from the three synoptic gospels. It has often been called the "spiritual gospel" because of the way that it portrays Jesus.

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/story/mmjohn.html

    The Gospel of Thomas was not excluded because it was a "fifth" gospel.
    I never said that the Gospel of Thomas was the fifth Gospel but that there was a number of Gospel accounts written:

    Early Christian communities produced many gospels. One was the Gospel of Mary Magdalene, in which Mary is regarded as a disciple, a leader of a Christian group. Another early Christian text known as the Gospel of Truth, reflects on the teachings of Jesus, but does not talk about his death and resurrection; and the Gospel of Thomas contains only sayings attributed to Jesus.

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/story/mmemergence.html

    I hope this has answered some of your questions. This is just a bit that I have turned up. I will post more as I come across the information.

    Will

    "I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man's reasoning powers are not above the monkey's."
    Mark Twain

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