Why are you looking forward to 1872? Er, 1873? Um...1874? Oh, I mean 1975? (page 2)

BluesBrother

A good link to info about '75

http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/1975.php

What has really bugged me lately is the stronger and stronger statements that to listen and obey the GB is the same as to Jehovah God. That is presumption..

Help me out here, maybe you will understand what I am trying to explain. Let's assume for a moment that the Governing Body are all "mature Christians." Before Guy Pierce kicked the proverbial bucket, there were 8 men in the group. None of those 8 men EVER insisted on their personal ideas or harbored a private opinion. This means that not one member of the GB ever insisted they were right, or that another member was wrong. No one ever took personal responsibility for a particular stance or thought? HOW IN THE HELL was ANYTHING ever accomplished?!?!? To me it's a miracle that they are still around!

Had their predictions and "mature Christian" doctrines proved to be unerring with the "mature" method, well THAT would be impressive. Even MORE impressive is their 100% failure rate!! They fact that they would continue on their mad course and still claim DIVINE backing, is even more miraculous, and quite frankly, mind boggling. Can you imagine any productive group in existence where NO ONE takes responsibility or insists that they are correct at some point, based on an opinion? Especially an opinion based on evidence? Without the gullible sheeple funding the WTBTS as a real estate flipping machine, they would have been out of business long ago.

Also, the absurdity of the whole system of Xianity becomes clear. We have some excellent people on this site, who I have come to love and respect. There are people here who would give you the shirt off of their back, take you in, cry with you, ect. Still, the Bible itself is so open to interpretation that it's impossible for ANYONE to ever be "CORRECT." It would be ludicrous to set yourself up as an authority in Biblical matters. Think of past posters who have? Where are they? Where is the guy who actually said he was the Messiah?? There is no "personal opinion" regarding the Bible that can ever be proven right. So the "mature" thing is to what, have a meeting every Wednesday and hope for a miracle?!?!?

In the end there are only private opinions. Even if you accept that Bible is from GOD, but tampered with, you can NEVER prove anything. That's why so many repeat the mantra of " JESUS SAVES." In the end, that all you have. If you believe that is true, that's ok. If you truly believe that, then JWism is NOT for you. They don't even say that! Their mantra is " Wait on Jehovah." That translates to " Listen, Obey, and be Blessed." That really means , "Be ever more submissive" to a room full of men where NOT ONE is willing to take a stand. What kind of true "leader" is afraid to take a stand, or have a personal opinion? Rambling completed....

DD

Finkelstein

The end of the story is the Watchtower Corporation is commercialized false prophet. $$$

Always was and probably always will be.

AndDontCallMeShirley

DD: Let's assume for a moment that the Governing Body are all "mature Christians." Before Guy Pierce kicked the proverbial bucket, there were 8 men in the group. None of those 8 men EVER insisted on their personal ideas or harbored a private opinion.

--

As Ray Franz described in Crisis of Conscience, the only individuals in the Org. allowed to have a dissenting opinion or harbor a "private" idea about WT doctrine are the Governing Body. Only they are allowed to question current doctrines/policies and open these doubts up to the other (now 7) members for discussion without fear of being disfellowshipped for apostasy. In actuality, according to WT's definition of "apostasy"(i.e. having even a thought that differs from the Org. constitutes apostasy), the only way changes can be made is for a GB member to be an apostate.

To your point, however, you are correct: it is absolutely absurd to think that anything would be accomplished if no one in the GB had a personal opinion about anything or tried to sway the group in a specific way. No decision could be made on any matter if that's the way things ran. As Ray pointed out, the GB is as political as any other corporate board and forcing personal opinions and forming alliances was often the only determining factor in how things got done.

Incidentally, the WT loves to insist there was a first century GB and WT follows that model. Really? The first century decision was unanimous; the GB requires only a 2/3 majority to enact a change. In essence, would this not make the dissenting 1/3 of the GB who disagreed with the 2/3 apostates??? It means the dissenting 1/3 does not agree with the now approved, "new light" doctrine, doesn't it? At best, it means the dissenters agree to a lie (the new doctrine) in order to support WT theology.

BU2B

Excellent ADCMS! It is so nice to see so many of the lies and false prophecies and contadictary statements in one place.. All you need to prove what the WT truly is is their own statements.

Newly Enlightened

I thought the whole 1975 debacle was OUR fault? hehe

AndDontCallMeShirley

NE: I thought the whole 1975 debacle was OUR fault?

Apparently, it was:

Prior to 1975:

"Yes, the end of this system is so very near! Is that not reason to increase our activity?...Reports are heard of brothers selling their homes and property and planning to finish out the rest of their days in this old system in the pioneer service. Certainly this is a fine way to spend the short time remaining before the wicked world's end." (Kingdom Ministry, May 1974, p. 3)

.

After the 1975 failure:

"It may be that some who have been serving God have planned their lives according to a mistaken view of just what was to happen on a certain date or in a certain year. They may have, for this reason, put off or neglected things that they otherwise would have cared for. But they have missed the point of the Bibles warnings concerning the end of this system of things, thinking that Bible chronology reveals the specific date." (Watchtower, July 15, 1976, p. 440)

"....Since certain expectations were not realized, many stumbled and returned to the ways of the world..." (Choosing The Best Way Of Life; 1979; p. 169)

"Again, in 1975, there was disappointment when expectations regarding the start of the Millennium failed to materialize. As a result, some withdrew from the organization…. Although these tests resulted in a sifting… others remained firm. Why?… ‘Those who had set their confidence in Jehovah remained steadfast and continued their preaching activity.’"—Proclaimers, p. 63

.

Underlying message: "if you were gullible enough to believe us (WT), then it's your own damn fault you were disappointed".

.

Or, as a last resort, WT can simply blame god for the errors. After all, He is the source of WT's information:

" Similarly today, a Governing Body composed of spirit-anointed Christians contributes to the unity of the worldwide congregation. The Governing Bodypublishes spiritually encouraging literature in many languages. This spiritual food is based on God's Word. Thus, what is taught is not from men but from Jehovah.-Isa. 54:13." --- W 9-15-2010

.

And, WT cannot use its "get out of jail free" card and say it's all acceptable because they were, after all, being sincere:

.

"Since the Bible was completed and "inspiration" is no longer necessary, a true prophet is one who is faithfully proclaiming what is written in the Bible.......It matters not whether he proclaims his message with deliberate, willful and malicious intent to deceive, or whether he is the blinded and deluded dupe of Satan and hence unwittingly used of him. In either case, he is a false prophet and hence the agent of Satan".----Watchtower May 15, 1930, p 154

DesirousOfChange

Don't forget!!!!!!!!

It is right around the corner.

It's very soon.

Very, very soon.

It really is.

It really really is!

Doc

Vidiot

AndDontCallMeShirley - "As Ray Franz described in Crisis of Conscience, the only individuals in the Org. allowed to have a dissenting opinion or harbor a "private" idea about WT doctrine are the Governing Body. Only they are allowed to question current doctrines/policies and open these doubts up to the other (now 7) members for discussion without fear of being disfellowshipped for apostasy. In actuality, according to WT's definition of "apostasy"(i.e. having even a thought that differs from the Org. constitutes apostasy), the only way changes can be made is for a GB member to be an apostate."

Holy shit, you're right.

The only way changes can get made is for one or more GB members to engage in WT-defined "apostacy"...

Goes a long way towards explaining why it seems like they're digging in and refusing to budge on more and more things.

DATA-DOG

" At best, it means the dissenters agree to a lie (the new doctrine) in order to support WT theology."

In WT-Land "unanimous" means agreeing with the "majority." The understanding is that magical Holy spirit directs the majority to reach a "spirit-directed" decision. The the "mature Christian" thing to do is to go along with the group. In reality, Holy Spirit = the pervailing opinion of the GB members. On the local level, it's the opinion of the Elder's with the strongest personalities, usually die-hard company men. Oppose them and it's "re-adjustment" time.

DD

Why are you looking forward to 1872? Er, 1873? Um...1874? Oh, I mean 1975?

Share this