Archaeology confirming the existence of 50 people mentioned in the Bible only means that the writers of those books were real, had a brain and stay informed of the events of their times. It does not confirm at all that the Bible came from God.
Hell or no hell
by never a jw 41 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Vanderhoven7
HOW LITERALLY SHOULD REVELATION 20:10 BE INTERPRETED?
One of the problems with JW theology is interpretive abuse; linking questionably related passages and arriving at extra-biblical conclusions. I think there is enough evidence in the text itself to demonstrate that Revelation 20:10 is completely figurative; that literally speaking, there is in fact, no "casting into", no "sulphur", no "fire", no "ongoing sensations of pain", and no "burning" in the lake of fire - in fact, there isn't even a lake.
NOTE: One can ask similar questions about other material in Revelation to separate image from reality. For example, although Revelation pictures both Jesus and Death as riders on horseback who set out to conquer, one might legitimately ask if it's possible that there could, in fact, be no "horses" or actual "riding" involved.
Is the seven-headed beast of Revelation 20:10 - literal or symbolic?
- How many heads do literal beasts (or persons) have?
Is this symbolic beast literally "cast" or thrown anywhere?
- Is death literally cast or thrown anywhere?
Is the symbolic beast figuratively cast into a literal lake?
- Is death cast into a literal lake?
- What does the figurative lake of fire stand for? (see verse 14)
Is the symbolic beast literally tormented in the figurative lake?
- The beast isn't literal; the casting isn't literal; and the lake
is not literal; how can we be sure that the torment is literal?
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From my book: Eternal Torment: Image and Reality
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myelaine
dear Vanderhoven...
do you have any comments that might shed some light on the actual questions I've raised?
love michelle
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Cold Steel
Vanderhovan: Cold Steel, What is the position of the LDS church on hell and torment?
It’s complicated, and it’s based on modern revelation rather than just what’s in the Bible (which isn’t much).
The term “Eternal” is esoteric. Just as Eternal Life doesn’t merely mean living forever, Eternal Torment doesn’t mean being tormented forever. Rather, the term “Eternal” is a term that refers to that which is meted out by God. In the Book of Mormon, a man by the name of Alma who, with his friends, were miscreants in their youth. Then they were confronted by an angel and severely rebuked after which they fell to the earth and remained as dead for three days.
Afterwards, Alma wrote that he “was racked with eternal torment, for my soul was harrowed up to the greatest degree and racked with all my sins.” He said he suffered “eternal torment” and yet it lasted but mere days (though I’m sure it seemed to last longer). He also described his experience I did remember all my sins and iniquities, for which I was tormented with the pains of hell; yea, I saw that I had rebelled against my God, and that I had not kept his holy commandments. Yea, and I had...led [many of God’s children] away unto destruction; yea, and in fine so great had been my iniquities, that the very thought of coming into the presence of my God did rack my soul with inexpressible horror.” (Alma 36)
In Mormon theology, those who have sinned against the Holy Spirit — that is, those who have received a sure knowledge of the power of God and then denied it — are called “sons of perdition.” They are those who are resurrected with no glory and cast into outer darkness with Satan and his angels.
Sidney Rigdon was one of the co-founders of the churches of Christ. But in the late 1820s he broke away from Alexander Campbell over the issue that they lacked the authority from God to baptize, ordain, confer the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands. An astounding speaker and preacher, he met Joseph Smith and became convinced that the LDS faith had that authority. He also believed that Smith received the revelations and visions he said he had.
In 1832, he had an experience confirming those beliefs. Both he and Smith received a joint revelation known from that day forth as “The Vision.” Regarding the fate of the wicked, the two prophets were told that the atonement of Christ guaranteed each of God’s children an inheritance, and the scriptures state that the time would come when every knee shall bend and every tongue confess Christ. And though people will inherit varying degrees of glory, many will have to pass through hell to fully comprehend the pain and suffering they’ve caused others. The revelation states in part:
These are they which have willfully placed themselves beyond God’s power, and according to the revelation, no one knows their ultimate fate save those who are partakers of it:
The nature of this revelation caused many of the early latter-day saints problems because it went against everything they had been taught. In fact, it went against everything Rigdon and Smith had been taught. There were others present when this vision was given and though some could see glory, or light, emanating from Rigdon’s and Smith’s faces, only Rigdon and Smith actually saw the vision. One would say, “What do I see?” and then describe what he was seeing, and the other would say, “I see the same.” Then he would say what he saw, and it went back and forth and written in real time by a scribe. One LDS authority years later said: “What, then, is ‘the second death?’ ... It is eternal banishment from His presence. He is the source of light and truth and power and glory and happiness and joy and dominion and increase forever, of which they will all be deprived. Being shut right out from the light, these shall go away into outer darkness where no ray of light comes, spiritual or physical-no ray of light from sun or moon or twinkling star or even a comet; to be in outer darkness, and no wonder there is ‘weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth,’ to use the scriptural expression.”
Some of our early authorities speculated that Satan, his angels and the sons of perdition would be reduced to their native elements and they used potter’s clay and defective vessels as examples. When pottery is defective, it will be broken down and returned to the clay, never to become that vessel again. Some LDS church members speculate that such spirits will be consigned to black holes, which seem to fit the term “outer darkness.” Since no one knows what happens once one passes through an event horizon — whether there are time dilations or whether it simply rips all matter to pieces, who knows. A black hole seems to the only thing in the universe completely devoid of light. But be that as it is, it, too, is merely speculation. Many think that spirits are not matter, but according to our scriptures, they are; just a more refined matter.
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Vanderhoven7
Cold Steel: Thank you for the research. It seems rather clear from the vision Rigdon and Smith reported that eternal misery awaits the damned in LDS thinking. Do you know if the BoM, the D&C or the Pearl of Great Price, speak of the soul as an immortal entity?
Michelle: No, nothing really comes to mind on the matter
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Vanderhoven7
I found a Mormon Site and did a search of my own and came up with
Mosiah 2:38
38 Therefore if that man repenteth not, and remaineth and dieth an enemy to God, the demands of divine justice do awaken his immortal soul to a lively sense of his own guilt, which doth cause him to shrink from the presence of the Lord, and doth fill his breast with guilt, and pain, and anguish, which is like an unquenchable fire, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever.
Alma 36:12
12 But I was racked with eternal torment , for my soul was harrowed up to the greatest degree and racked with all my sins.
Mosiah 27:29
29 My soul hath been redeemed from the gall of bitterness and bonds of iniquity. I was in the darkest abyss; but now I behold the marvelous light of God. My soul was racked with eternal torment ; but I am snatched, and my soul is pained no more.
Doctrine and Covenants 76:44
44 Wherefore, he saves all except them—they shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment —
2 Nephi 9:16
16 And assuredly, as the Lord liveth, for the Lord God hath spoken it, and it is his eternal word, which cannot pass away, that they who are righteous shall be righteous still, and they who are filthy shall be filthy still; wherefore, they who are filthy are the devil and his angels; and they shall go away into everlasting fire, prepared for them; and their torment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever and has no end.
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myelaine
dear Vanderhoven...
Based on your response I suspected you hadn't really thought about it too hard. I guess I had hoped if it IS something you truly believe, given the opportunity to defend your presupposition, you'd at least try... I noticed that in the peek at your book that you've given us you site the JW's as being erroneous in their method of coming to a biblical interpretation and then quickly move on as if somehow their error brings validity to your own interpretation. I may be wrong in my perception of your writing but, that's how I see it. You might notice that with the JW method and your method of interpreting hell you both have the error of dismissing certain scriptural passages that don't jive with your presupposition AND reference your own feelings on the subject ie: "the idea of a loving God isn't consistant with torturing individuals forever". That is indeed true and in fact scripture doesn't say God is going to torture people forever. God isn't going to be in hell to torture anyone. IN CONTEXT, the everlasting fire of hell is meant for everlasting spirits -satan and his angels- that there are humans consigned there as well isn't because of God who wants to torture them...it is because, given the opportunity, they didn't choose the means of escape fully and completely broadcast by Jesus Christ. You, yourself came to "extra-biblical" (as you call it) interpretation by the same means...by not examining ALL revealed scripture to reach your conclusion. For instance, how many times did you have to ignore specific statements by Jesus as to the duration and veracity of the actual place called hell? Isn't what He says about it worth more of your consideration? Furthermore, what method do you use when confronted with certain scriptures contrasting everlasting life with everlasting damnation? how do you conclude that one everlasting is actual and one isn't? I'm thinking that not only are you deceiving yourself with your excursion into biblical interpretation, but you're intentions are to publish a book...if you'd like to be of benefit to those who are misled...exactly how "helpful" do you think you'll be by presenting slipshod interpretation?(I'm kinda sorry if you're offended by what I've said but, frankly, my concern is more for the people who may be inclined to choose your opinion over dealing with what Jesus has to say...the implication being: NOT fully believing Him) love michelle
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Vanderhoven7
Never a jw: You wrote: "Back to the main topic, from my readings of the Bible it seems that there are multiple references to a fiery place in the NT and the OT. Therefore, according to the Bible, there is hell and JW's may have it wrong again."
I believe Jehovah's Witnesses have this doctrine right. Hell (Hades) is not eternal because it will eventually be emptied of people and cast into the lake of fire which is interpreted in verse 14 of Revelation 20 .... as "The second death" In other words, death and hell will be plagued for all eternity (literally destroyed). There is scriptural presedent for interpreting "torment" as destruction.
In support of the idea that torment need not be understood simply as a conscious experience of suffering, the ancient Greek Septuagint Version of the Hebrew Scriptures employs the word (basanos) used in Rev.20:10 for torment with reference to destruction and death. We read in Ezekiel 3:20 for instance:
And when the righteous turn away from his righteousness, and commits a trespass and I shall bring [basanos] before him; he shall die".
In the New Testament, we also find torment (basanos) associated with destruction. On some occasions, for example, demons being confronted by Jesus demand to know if he has come to "basanos" them (Mt.8:29, Mk.5:7, Lu.8:28) and on other occasions to "apollumi" or utterly destroy them. (Mk.1:24, Luke 4::34)
In terms of the book of Revelation itself, passages that employ (basanos) torment include Rev.9:5; 11:10; 14:10, 11; Although the fiery torments mentioned in these judgments in Revelation are not final, they are painful (like a scorpion's sting), devastating and sometimes lethal for those who experience them. However, Revelation also employs (basanos) torment as a figure for destruction.
In Revelation 18, for example, John describes the fiery destruction of Babylon the Great as torment (18:9, 10). But Babylon is not a person or a group of persons that individually or collectively experience personal pain and anguish. Rather Babylon represents a vast social, economic and religious system. Babylon in Revelation 18 is personified as a licentious queen who commits adultery with the kings of the earth, trades with merchants, and deceptively acts as a sanctuary for God's people. BABYLON CANNOT POSSIBLY EXPERIENCE CONSCIOUS SENSATIONS OF PAIN, JUST AS SHE CANNOT LITERALLY EXPERIENCE CONSCIOUS SENSATIONS OF PLEASURE AS SHE COMMITS FORNICATION WITH THE KINGS OF THE EARTH. Basanos torment in Revelation 18, is simply imagery for destruction (18:19, 21).
The smoke of Babylon's torment (destruction) rises forever. (Rev.19:3) This smoke isn't evidence of "collective pain and anguish", but of fiery destruction which lasts one full hour (Rev.18:10, 17). The image of smoke rising eternally represents for all perpetuity, a "powerful reminder of God's devastating judgment" on a corrupt social, economic and religious system. And Bablyon's brief torment qualifies as "eternal" simply because the implications of her destruction are eternal.
Vander
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myelaine
dear Vanderhoven...
you said: "But Babylon is not a person or a group of persons that individually or collectively experience personal pain and anguish. Rather Babylon represents a vast social, economic and religious system."...
the WTBTS is a global social, religious system. Are you saying that none of the people exposed to "her" individually or collectively experience personal pain and anguish? That's the thing...when people HAVE emotional ties they get hurt and sometimes that hurt manifests as a physical reality. And (if you would) consider in the case of babylon that there are two beings behind the whole thing according to the workings of satan...then doesn't it stand to reason that when God passes judgement on them then that "torment" would manifest as a physical reality?
love michelle
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Vanderhoven7
Michelle: You said:
<<Are you saying that none of the people exposed to "her" individually or collectively experience personal pain and anguish>>
Certainly not! Get real.
