How was Adam Perfect? He sinned....Duh (page 3)

DS211

Nice one apog...good to know hes outta the loop

adamah

Yeah, sorry for posting the bad link above:

http://awgue.weebly.com/the-paradox-of-adam-and-eve-and-how-the-new-world-translation-fruitlessly-attempts-to-keep-it-hidden.html

I've got to edit the article down to size (or break it into two), as it's way too long!! However, it contains many thought-starters, little bits of ammunition to use to help awaken individuals....

Adam

adamah

PON said- How was Adam Perfect? It is a void question. He didn't exist..........in my opinion that is.

Well, that's an unsupported CONCLUSION, a thought-stopper. If someone accepts unsupported conclusions, then it would actually be counter-productive to the ultimate goal of getting people to think for themselves, since they'd onlt be accepting the conclusions of others without having any reason to justify the belief.

I mean, yes, you're right, but getting to that point requires coming from within the account, and presupposing it IS true in order to point out the inconsistencies within.

galaxie said-

Hi all ,just a thought , if Satan put a doubt in eves mind who at that time was"perfect "ie is without sin, then who put the doubt in Satan's mind or conciousness if you like after all wasn't he created as a perfect angel? Seems to me it could only have been his creator . Does that not create a circle of thought which can't be squared? Just a thought!!

Yup, that's the question I asked as a 12 y.o. kid, and never received a satisfactory answer to the question. (It, along with 'the problem of evil' convinced me the Bible was all wet.)

If God was "perfect", then where did the conception of imperfection come from, if not created by God?

In other words, how did an angel get the capability to feel envy? And how did Eve possess the capability to "covet" if she was "perfect"?

Flawed products both. God cannot try to pin the blame on what He creates: there's an old German saying, "it's a poor craftsman indeed who blames his tools, or the items he makes, rather than blaming himself for his lack of skill as a craftsman".

It turns out the Jews didn't conceive of Adam and Eve as "perfect" humans, but imperfect beings whom God expected to CONTROL their tendencies to sin ('yetzer hara' in Hebrew). Hence why Jews feel no need to be redeemed for Adamic sin by the blood sacrifice of a "perfect" Jesus: it makes no gobsmacking sense in Jewish theology, but only results from later Xian additions to the Hebraic account (and is sold and swallowed by Gentiles, who don't bother to understand Jewish interpretations of the OT, or to understand the thinking behind the traditions contained inside the Old Testament).

Adam

THE GLADIATOR

sir82 Harry Potter, Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, etc...

And the worse fiction story of all - the bible. Sorry to spoil the party, but although this is all entertaining stuff I personally prefer War of the Worlds. It’s better than the bible story, superbly presented and modern.

budbayview

Good question, I have pondered this myself.

Perfection does not change one’s ability to make choices, or one’s free will. If it did, then ask yourself how or why perfect angels and the first humans sinned? Perfection doesn’t make you a genius, or give you super physical abilities. You must still put data into the brain or learn. What accomplishments would there be left in life if we did not have to learn, perfect or not? It may and hopefully so, make us a better person because we have perfection. However, it is because we have the ability to learn, and get it right, without the forbearance of death or disease or physical limitations and obstacles. But, make no mistake, it still requires us to learn and experience life and gain wisdom to be a better person.

We are very close to perfection now, with few minor genetic defects. Provided we have no mental (that we are aware of) defects to prevent us from thinking. This erroneous business about only using a small percentage of our brain is bunk. I have heard it a thousand times, when ones in the hall would speak of perfection as if it somehow granted ones genius abilities. “We only use 10% of our brains.” they would say. “Imagine if we could tap into the other 90%!” Most of us currently use 100% today, intelligence is not gained by perfection, but rater time and experience. Living a few hundred years would certainly give one experience and wisdom. The only thing stopping us from this is time and initiative.

Since we have shown that perfection does not mean you’re a robot, then is Satan the cause or the manifestation of evil? And, if he is abolished, what does this change with respect to good and evil? It will only serve to remove the antagonist, of which he had purpose. Without that, we would not know what good is, because we would have no comparison to evil. So, do we see Gods purpose, his wisdom and reasoning in setting the parameters for us to learn THE lesson of humanity. He wants you to love him for him, and not because he will condemn us in the metaphorically defined hell, for eternity. He wants to know we are loyal above the superficial riches he can provide or withhold, but because he alone has our best interest, it is because we need him for that reason, there is no other hope. So he could have just said that, and he probably did, but to show the reality of this to his children and to prevent this from happening again, he addressed it, and allowed this universal play to proceed. Since our Father set up the rules, he knows them with expert authority and since he created us, he knows us, again with expert authority. Therefore, to assume he did not anticipate the failures of Adam and Eve is underestimating the Grand Creator. Notice, I used the word anticipate. That is because, there is a difference between a hypotheses or educated guess, and the assurance of knowing an outcome. And, if he had an assurance of the outcome, that represents pre-destiny, and we are all clear that was not the case due to the implications. In other words, what is the challenge of living a life knowing each outcome? No fun at all, right?

When he determines we have the lesson learned, he will restore his theocracy….hopefully before we blow ourselves up.

my2cents

mistified

Marked.

This whole thread perfectly shows how the bible just is faulty at some points. Yep, the bible gods word IS NOT perfect. You guys are truly intellectual.

Vanderhoven7

Adam was not perfect. Jesus, like Adam, was sinless, but He became perfect through suffering.

1Pe 5:10 Now the God of all grace, the One calling you to His eternal glory in Christ Jesus, you having suffered a little, Himself will perfect, confirm, strengthen, establish you. Heb 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. Heb 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Heb 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Perfection (The Greek τελειόω teleioō) implies experience/maturity

From G5046; to complete, that is, (literally) accomplish, or (figuratively) consummate (in character): - consecrate, finish, fulfil, (make) perfect.

jgnat

Hubby is furious at Adam for ruining perfection for generations of humans. I ask him, even if he was perfect, he was also perfectly innocent! It's not like he had any experience with temptation! Nowadays we get lots more practice avoiding temptation and recognizing deception. Not to mention all the historical cautionary tales we have available. Adam had none of that. Completely innocent of good and evil, living in paradise and having leisurely conversations with a perfectly good deity in the cool of the evening, how could he have had a clue?

Not to mention, carrying the burden of ruining the lives of all of humanity until the end.

Not fair, I say.

Apognophos

jgnat, if I were there, I'd want to ask him why it's Adam's fault that his children inherited imperfection. God never even warned him that would be a punishment for his sin, only that he would 'positively die'. JWs just accept for some reason that sin "had" to be inherited, like that's just how our bodies work (of course, the original idea in the passage was that children should suffer for their sins of their parents, which we no longer consider fair in today's society). This was one of my earliest doubts as a JW, wondering why we had to be imperfect just because Adam sinned. The JWs have no answer for this, except the lame analogy about the dented cake pan.

How was Adam Perfect? He sinned....Duh

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