I think my fade has hit a rut. Do I need to grow a pair?

by konceptual99 37 Replies latest jw friends

  • KateWild
    KateWild

    I need to be clearer about my position just so the kids see the reality of situation rather than hold onto a hope that the rest of the family get to where I am just by osmosis.- K99

    The subversive family study is the difficult one to do. My wife will 100% call me out if she thinks I am presenting anything with an agenda and she ain't stupid-K99

    You know exactly what you need to do. You know your next step. It's just going to cause some flack to begin with, go with the old chestnut "I am depressed and having some problems and taking the matter to Jehovah" You will be depressed if you get flack, but you might get less if you use the depressed card.

    Think of the kids, my son still goes with his dad, and now his dad is turning the pressure on for my son to go back out on the FS and become a publisher again. I don't want my child being used as a canvasser for WT. So I have to do something.

    Act now in their best inteerest K99, it aint easy but it needs to be done. Kate xx

  • besty
    besty

    Its really difficult but you should at least try and spring your wife out as well. No point in being left wondering 'what if..' later on. Having said that it sounds like that attempt should leave you with a fallback position with plausible deniablity

    You could go cold turkey and explain your conscience doesnt allow you to continue. "I have made an informed choice not to attend for now, and if that changes I will let you know" repeat until blue in the face, particulary if your wife defies your wishes and drags some elders in.

    If pushed you could explain to your wife only - no one else - that there are issues that defy facts (the flood for one - http://corior.blogspot.com/2006/02/part-1-general-description-of-flood.html), that defy a normal interpretation of Christian Doctrine (the Mediator - http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/mediator.php) and that defy moral behaviour (child abuse policy - http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/paedophilia.php) - combining these 3 EXAMPLES makes it impossible for it to be the right religion, if such a thing exists.

    All the other advice is great - be the best husband and father you can be, try and arrange fun stuff that conflict with meetings and service, cultivate a few mutual friends outside the KH.

    PM me if you like :-)

  • FadeToBlack
    FadeToBlack

    Tough position to be in especially with the children. I took the approach Besty suggested above and basically said I can't do it anymore. If you aren't honest about this, it is going to eat you alive. You will hate/loathe yourself for being intellectually dishonest. Take a long look at youself in the mirror and ask yourself if you are going to try and be brave and courageous and do the right thing or not?

    I haven't been to a meeting or service in several months. Service went first, then fewer and fewer meetings.

  • RunAsFastAsYouCan
    RunAsFastAsYouCan

    You are nothing to them. They are using you for their ego. It's all about them. They re establish their ego everytime you condone their behavior.

  • confusedandalone
    confusedandalone

    At some point you are going to have to be true to yourself... when that happens and how it happens is up to you. You can reveal it in a controlled manner or wait too long and deal with a situation that you may not be prepared for. Once you are 100 percent sure you want nothing to do with watchtower start making changes and moves to exit. You have one lide... everyday you waste being phony and not being true to yourself becomes more painful

  • Giordano
    Giordano

    Here is an approach that might be a bit more appealing.

    Attack the WTBTS at it’s weakest points.

    #1 The Pedophile issue. the Societies two witness rule flies in the face of Caesar’s law and common sense. Why would you risk the possibility of going into the FS in the company of a potential child abuser? Since that information is not shared by the Elders why expose your children to this potential issue as well as the innocent householder. Until they resolve that policy no FS for you and the children. No overnight visits to any witness.

    With 1,000s of letters accusing brothers of being pedophiles already on file in the legal department of the WTBTS and many many law suits working there way through the courts this is a highly independent documented issue.

    #2. Something else that is well documented in the Pew Survey on religion...... JW’s have one of the lowest incomes on average in the USA namely because higher education is discouraged. It is discouraged because the WTBTS has taught from it’s beginning that Armageddon was coming. Jwfacts .org documents through the Societies own publications end of the world predictions some 9 to 11 times.

    Today many JW’s can not provide for their family’s or aging parents. Armageddon will come when it comes if it comes at all. In the meantime insist as head of household that your children avail themselves of any and all school opportunities.......as they plan on various types of higher learning.

    #3. The Blood issue. How many die each year because of a belief that is not practiced by any other Christian or Jewish religion? Make sure your family understands blood factions and do not allow your children to carry blood cards.

    Show your wife images from Jonestown where 960 people died by committing suicide because of the teachings of one man. If nothing else study these images so you can appreciate how serious the consequences can be when you don’t apply critical judgement. https://www.google.com/#q=images+of+Jonestown

    While we have debatable figures on how many JW’S die each year for want of a BT (especially in trauma cases). Here is what Jonestown looked like: Keep in mind JW’S don’t commit suicide in public but in the privacy of their homes, hospital room’s and Trauma Centers .

  • nonjwspouse
    nonjwspouse

    Making waves is so very difficult. But, when it is due to not comprimising your integrity, then somwtimes you have to make the waves. As gently as you can. You have given time and shown you can continue, but not without making waves in the process, then allowing the waves to settle verbally, but don't stop your own progress, just as some others here suggested. You have a resposibilty to your children to teach them to think for themselves. Some of that is teaching by example.

    We must not be afraid of unknown consequenses when we are doing what we know is the right thing to do. After two years of confronting head onmy husbands desire to be baptised, I finally halted. The intinsity of his emotions ran too high, I was actually pushing him farther in. Since my own break in br9ing up the topic he has also taken a break in his progressing. This is so helpful even though we barely communicate on this subject, when we rarely do, he begins with his "created" perceptions, but I see the reality hitting him when reminded of his behavior during that time. Some of it is not refutable because it is documented. After a year now I am beginning to make waves again. I don't know how it will turn out and it scares the hades out of me. But I know our married life cannot continue on eggshells. I have learned a lot and now know not to cause himto "shut down" with an overload of information.

    By going in FS you are not being true to yourself at all. An occasional KH appearance might not be too bad but a deep discussion about it, meaning questions left for her, and your children, to try to answer, would be great if you can pull that off. Questions with no acceptable WT answer can be powerful. ( Though you will likely get the emotional rote answers most of the time for a while, or always, you never know)

    I concentrate on planting seeds fromnon JW things, mostly political, etc,. Things he begins with agreeing completely then a far off gaze enters into his face, and I know it hits a nerve of recognistion. That is usually when I stop or maybe say one or two more things then let it go. I am still unsure of the real effect it has. He is highly non-communicative, defensive, and suffers low self-esteem and severe depression. Slow is a key to the seed planting and allowing them to figure it out , if they want to. Emotion is what holds them in, not facts, or intellect. They have to want to allow themnselves to see the TTATT. Once that happens, the rest can be much faster, but highly painful.

    This is clearly only my opinion as an outsider looking in.

  • adamah
    adamah

    Konceptual said-

    So for the past few months we have been following the same old pattern of reasonably regular meeting attendance (2/3), 1 saturday FS a month (for me - the missus goes out in the week) and personally doing enough to keep under the radar of the elders. It's a rut. I want things to move forward but nothing is really changing.

    Well, if what you wrote above is the case, then you're only fooling yourself by labeling your prior acts as "fading", since you haven't even started carrying out the actions which constitute a "fade" (unless you only meant to say that mentally you're fading). "Fading" means slowly decreasing one's activity in the JWs, even moving to a different region in order to get off the JW radar.

    You're in a VERY-DIFFICULT POSITION to consider successfully "fading", since your WIFE and kids are not on-board, and the longer you fail to recognize the truly-difficult situation you are in (you seem in denial by calling it a "fade"), the harder it's going to get. You are ON the radar, and your wife likely would rat you out in a NY minute, but your failure to act is only that: it's NOT taking any action.

    Just saying, you are in a VERY-CHALLENGING situation, and your work is cut out for you. The first step is recognizing the situation for what it is, and then coming up and committing to an ACTION PLAN, with firm time-lines (which should allow for some flexibility, but not as flexible as say, the JW predictions for Armageddon).

    In the end, you may not be able to extricate your spouse to "fade", but you'll at least have your freedom to be able to have any influence with your children in the future (who are being indoctrinated, even as we speak, and as you do nothing), maybe even serving as a 'safety valve' for them as they grow older, if/when they decide the JWs are not for them.

    Adam

  • DesirousOfChange
    DesirousOfChange

    Share your true issues about the JW doctrines with her as questions. Make her do the research to prove their doctrines are true. We all know she will fail.

    An example is the new Generation Doctrine. Examine ever scripture where the work "generation" is used. Use the Interlinear Bible and a parallel Bible. Do any of these other scripts support the new definition. (WT has always used other scripts to support their understanding of wild ideas. "Interpretation belongs to God.") If it is now so evident that Jesus meant "this generation" to mean TWO groups, why was it not so evident with their prior dose of New Lite. Go back and read what was so evident before the change.

    My seeds of doubt were sowed by a Return Visit. He presented some difficult questions about doctrine and WT policy that when researched, I could not find a satisfying answer. Those doubts became fertile some time later, but he can be given the credit for helping to wake me from my slumber.

    There is no quick fix. Be subtle in laying out the doubts.

    Doc

  • konceptual99
    konceptual99

    ABibleStudent - thanks for the ideas. I've read Combatting Cult Mind Control but not the others. Your idea about 1st century BITE abuse and also how to encourage critical thinking on the part of my wife is useful.

    nonjwspouse - my FS is as token as it can be - just out for 30 mins once a month delivering the WT to a few routes. It's a compromise but is a big drop down from what I was doing 18 months ago as a MS.

    adamh - I get what you are saying about my fade and to a certain extent I do agree hence the post but I do think that I have been actively as well as mentally fading. 18 months ago I was a MS, a bit cynical but sure I was in the right religion and sure I wanted my kids to become Witnesses. It took around 6 months for my views to diametrically change and for me to be sure I did not want to be a Witness any more. I have decreased my activity substantially over that time including stepping down as an MS. I was hoping that this along with discussions I have been having with my wife would awaken her interest in researching things herself but it's not really happening. So I have been fading but cannot implement a true fade much more as it involves the buy in of my wife.

    Your point on recognising the situation and having an action plan is exactly what I am trying to do here and now. What has been useful is getting different opinions. My gut feel is that nothing is going to change much further unless I make it happen.

    Knowing my wife as I do, I think there are two choices.

    1 - Be very open and say I don't want to attend meetings, do any FS and have lost faith and my belief in Jehovah. She will be very hurt, scared and things will be difficult. She would not escalate things with the elders as that's not her way but there would be inevitable questions and pressure to meet with me which would not be fair to let her field on my behalf. It would cause social problems as so much our social life revolves around friends in the "truth". Family could be a problem as well. I think the biggest source of upset would be about the kids. At least the kids would have the opportunity to talk to me openly about my feelings and how it affects them.

    2 - Agree to a level of spirtual activity such as continued meeting attendance and family study but on the understanding that she do a couple of things for me. Firstly, read CoC. Secondly, do some independant research on a few key issues (e.g. the ones Besty suggested). This would not guarentee that she wakes up but would give her the space to form her own conclusions. If she wakes up then we can fade properly. If she does not then it's back to option 1.

    I don't have any real concerns about our marriage. Even option 1 is very, very unlikely to break us up but I know she would not feel the marriage is a partnership with both parties moving in the same direction and with the same goals.

    Thanks for all the comments and responses - plenty to think about!

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