Part I - Why Believe In God?

by jst2laws 19 Replies latest jw friends

  • Pathofthorns
    Pathofthorns

    I tried so hard to maintain some sort of belief in God when I stopped being a JW.

    After much thought and questioning all of my concepts about God and what I should do regarding God, my beliefs became so vague and intagable that they were meaningless and irrelavent.

    Everything came down to a lack of evidence that there is a loving God that actively cares about what happens and is happening to mankind.

    I think mankind has reached a point where if there is a God, it is his turn to reveal something a little more. I would like to believe in God and I think more people would if he revealed himself further.

    Path

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    Pre-Sapiens man was a treat. For predators, that is. A silly monkey that would have been far better off staying in the trees. A soft, tasty, slow and defenceless creature. Safety came in numbers, and in having a brain.

    Now, human sexuality has developed around the hidden fertility of the female, which developed along with the behaviour we call love, as it was beneficial to survival to have a mate who hung around for a while, especially as as our species evolved, the helpless infant phase became greatly prelonged.

    Likewise, I believe our ability to believe in intangibles is a survival feature. A community featuring high numbers of those who could co-operate together for the greater good of the community would survive better than one of rugged individualists, and those that could believe in intangibles were more able to co-operate, thus more likely to survive, and thus the characteristic would survive.

    The ability to hold intangible beliefs in common meant that social structures were more stable, with a minimum of internal violence... you don't really need to worry about whether Og'abah is going to bury a stone axe in your head and take your woman if there are more pressing peroblems, such as Hyenas the size of monster trucks, and mummy sabretooth 'tigers' who bring their cubs to practice on the monkeys before letting them try their fangs on things with hard hooves, horns or tusks.

    It is no more a sign of god's existence than is the behaviour of a horse if it sees something moving above and behind it. The human ability to believe, and the mad "Oh shit, it's a Jaguar!" reaction of a horse are just survival features.

    Now, it's a great survival feature to use in an arguement to support the existence of god. But just as taking a water-proof jacket off on horse-back on a windy day can make the horse THINK that there's a Jaguar about to leap on it, so can our survival feature makes people THINK there is a god, due to the reactions it engenders.

    On these grounds alone I don't see the 'god-spot' as being in any way a proof or support of the existence of god. If you add the fact that religious belief has been proven in twin studies to be probably as genetically linked as homosexuality, then it makes it obvious that we're just dealing with an evolutionary behavioural artifact, like the way babies grasp fingers really tightly, or make a wild grabbing motions if you let them drop backwards.

    To argue otherwise is to accept that some people are genetically 'damned' - it's impossible, if homosexuality is genetically linked, to accept god would condemn people for being the way that they are 'meant' to be - the Biblical prohibitions are just cultural bigotry, not divine word. Likewise, it's impossible to accept god would 'damn' people because they just don't have good genes for believing in god.

    Thus I find the contention ;

    The bottom line is that regardless of the possibilities, we no longer believe because of our Watchtower experience
    . Like it our not the WT has changed us and continues to affect us.

    (emphasis mine)
    ... utterly unproved, and with many 'ah, you don't believe in god because you were a Witness and are bitter/have your trust destroyed' arguements, a little offensive. It spits in the face of every hour of study or research done by people who may well have been Witnesses, but who now choose not to believe in god as they find no proof of god. It's like saying that those xJW's who do believe in god are too brainwashed, scared, lazy or just plain stupid to do enough study to find out the facts.

    I would love to believe in god, an afterlife, a plan, some coherence. But there is no proof, and logic alone dictates that there would be proof - as in as provable and quantifiable as gravity. On this basis, I don't believe in god.

    Of course, this is part I of my response, and I look forward with interest to part II, as I understand I may have gone ahead slightly.

  • jst2laws
    jst2laws

    Marvin,

    You said "I believe" several times and gave reasons for your beliefs. Several others also have given reasons for belief.

    It seems natural to believe an intelligent being is responsible for our lives. Perhaps if Xjws had not been so disillusioned by their WT experience it would be easier to maintain belief in God.

    I will try to address this morning another reason many x's have trouble with belief.

    Thanks for your thoughts

    Jst2laws

  • jst2laws
    jst2laws

    Chappy,

    the Bible doesn't have to be infallable, or even inspired for that matter, for there to be a God. There doesn't have to be baptism for there to be a God.

    This touchs on part of the problem I will address in the next to parts. Seems we have been taught expect the wrong things from the Bible and God.

    Thanks for your thoughts

    SYN

    You said, "Everybody follows SOMETHING".

    Interesting thought.

    Jst2laws

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon
    It seems natural to believe an intelligent being is responsible for our lives.

    Actually, normally TWO; mum and dad.

    And please do not get bogged down the semantic side alley of saying 'ah-ha, you said belief too'. I think I can demonstrate that an atheistic scientist and a theistic religonist use the word with completely different underlying paradigms, and would rather we concentrate on supposed proofs of god than semantics. Of course, you may disagree!

  • SYN
    SYN

    As usual, Abbaddon answered the question so much more elegantly than I did!

    "Until they become conscious, they will never rebel. Until they rebel, they will never become conscious." - George Orwell

  • jst2laws
    jst2laws

    Hello Abaddon,

    I'm sorry if I offended you. I suppose I did over generalize that all non-believing X-jws arrived at their present conviction as a result of their WT experience. Surely there are many who leave the WT still believing in God and then as a result of their own research come to a different conclusion. There are surely others who did not believe before their WT experience and since have return to their original disbelief.

    You stated as others:

    I would love to believe in god, an afterlife, a plan, some coherence. But there is no proof, and logic alone dictates that there would be proof - as in as provable and quantifiable as gravity. On this basis, I don't believe in god.
    "No proof" is what I'm am trying to address. There is 'no proof' in the context of what our culture and modern science considers proof. If I looked at the issue strictly from the Cartesian method that if it can be doubted it should be rejected, I would not believe in God either. But the question I consider in Part III is: Is there nothing we believe in or commit to that can be doubted, cannot be proved?

    I have posted part II but will not have part III ready until likely this evening. Thanks for you comments.

    Jst2laws

  • Pathofthorns
    Pathofthorns

    J2L, a friend of mine here has told me several times that exJWs are often poor researchers and lack the critical mind to evaluate certain subjects properly. He told me this is because they often think like JWs still and I think what he said makes much sense.

    When I first stopped being a JW i refused to consider even the possibility that there could be no God, so usually I skipped over atheist arguments on these sorts of forums. Eventually though, little bits and pieces of information began to trickle through and I could see my position weakening more and more.

    Frenchy, who has posted here from the beginning had posted some brilliant stories he wrote and these made a huge impact on me. A statement made by "Puppylove" to the effect that the simplest reason for the evil in the world is that there is no God or he does not care enough to do anything about it. I found myself having to agree.

    While I respect what you are trying to do, hopefully you have examined the "other side" of the argument as well and weighed out carefully what the opposing perspective is and all of its philosphies.

    For me, losing my faith in God and the Bible was a more difficult thing than leaving the WT, but it was equally liberating. I believe it is a position that finally makes sense without all the agonizing questions and having to jump through hoops to make the end result (god) work.

    At the same time, I am open to belief in God, whoever and whatever that may be upon seeing further evidence. And not just evidence that he at one time existed and created, but that he actively cares for man and his creations at the present time.

    Path

  • Teirce
    Teirce

    Jst2laws, you have to make allowance for children who were raised from birth in the JWs who never gave wholehearted creedence to a conviction that there was or is a loving god. The farthest one can throw such young ones is their predictable fear of the unknown. Ie, they do not "know" there is not a god, so they must obey strictures imposed by parents. By this I mean that there is no God except what the parents enforce by disciplne and fear. God is contained in the belt, or the sword, and nothing else. There is no conviction that there is a being who treats one as a dignified equal, which is the story given out by those who say that God is love. So while being a JW can lead to atheism, and does, it is not the sole cause of atheism. To ascribe such undervalues the cognative faculties of those who see the glaring lack of evidence for god *before* they see the human hypocrisy that denotes unilateral, categorical untruth.

    Going on memory here... "Faith is the assured expectation, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld." I would distinguish faith from belief. As discussed in the Is Atheism Genetic thread, belief in itself is the seperation twixt animal and man. But religious belief is one step beyond that initial cognative advantage, and becomes a powerful and exploitable resource by those so talented. But the advantage, for my money, is incalculable. To anecdotize: Back in '94 or so, I read Tolkien's Silmarillion. I was so taken away and impressed with the veracity of its secondary reality, a concept Tolkein treats in his essay "On Fairy Stories", that I made a decision that his secondary reality, that of which we convince ourselves, was every bit, in every way, as palpable, savory, credible and morally instructive as every last bit of pendantic detail to ever come out of theologic apologetica, Catholic, JW or what have you. For me, it was moreso believable. And yet, one cannot choose to convince oneself of something which is obviously the product of inventive genius. Global deluge, regional Black Sea/Carpathians flood. Parting of the Red Sea, seismic activity that causes depressions into which vast amounts of waters rush (see history of San Francisco bay). Burning bush, mirage. Blood in the Nile, red algea. Ezekiel's wheel-within-wheel chariot, multi-circular atmospheric rainbow effects. Ezekiel's? vision of the amies of Jah standing around him, Devil showing Jesus the kingdoms of the world, fata morgana mirage. Star over the nativity, supernova. Pillar of fire/smoke, beacon bonfires set by advance scouts. ad infinitum. Every one of these required genius to apply the natural phenomena to a moral agenda. Occam's Razor boils everything down Except for that elusive quality, which I can equate most with divinity itself, the imagination, the creative faculty of magnetizing the tribe via tales of objective and reward. (Tolkein's revisionisms included Numenor as Atlantis legend, Valar as the Greek pantheon and the Elven languages as Latin and Germanic. As far as I'm concerned, there's no reason I could not devote my faith full-time to a mythology conceived no later than the Battle of the Somme, as others have devoted theirs to a mass-exodus (religiously-persecuted Puritans, anyone?) of a certain people out of Egypt., and the ensuing ingenius revisionism required to keep them coherent.)

    I believe, based on the technological advances of society, that if one can conceive a thing, one can construct it. It follows that since we can conceive of a god, a diety, we can given enough time construct one up to our specifications. Therefore I see no retarding difficulty of the god-spot, because it is itself what lifts humanity up by the bootstraps. So as dealt with in Star Trek and similar sci-fi sandboxes, if a hypothetical communicator in 1963 can be duplicated by a cellphone 30 years later, what logical reason is there that a hypothetical species in 1963 could not be duplicated by a human-descended race of vastly more powerful sentient electron-field suspensions 30000 years hence? Granted, such a "god" would still be tied to out physical universe, our physical matter, but how much more of a leap would it be to become pure extra-universal energy, the stuff of which the hypothetical Christian god is made? [I may be stepping on Mormon territory, not sure.]

    Based upon this, and recent theories on the nature of Time, I go one step farther to say that if one can suspend in their mind a continuum of time, like a timeline, and view all time as equal, then one can take the natural technological consequence of an inevitably created God, born of humans, as a contemporary event to what we call our own Time, then Presto, there is a God, and he is what humans have been saying for millenia, and he is up to par with their expectations. But this is a suspension, a model for looking at it, and can't pass for reality. But it helps me to conceive how people, ex-JWs or otherwise, can somehow believe in a Christian God. (And that's as Occam's Razor'ed as I can get it.)

  • jst2laws
    jst2laws

    Path,

    You have always differed with dignity. Thanks for your response.

    At the same time, I am open to belief in God, whoever and whatever that may be upon seeing further evidence. And not just evidence that he at one time existed and created, but that he actively cares for man and his creations at the present time.
    I do not believe anyone can provide evidence of sort you would want. The main point of the next two post I am trying to express my belief that some things cannot be demonstrated by the scientific method of 'proof'. As I will explain in part III our conditioning to demand proof before something can be believed is limited. I will try to show in that post that their are many intangible things in which we 'believe' without proof.

    As to looking at the other side of the story, I have never seen any scientific evidence that God does not exist just as I can produce no scientific evidence that he does exit. Evidence that he actively cares about us is possibly there unless we try to set the conditions of what he should be doing to prove this.

    Thanks for your thought, Path.

    Teircy

    There is no conviction that there is a being who treats one as a dignified equal, which is the story given out by those who say that God is love.
    I would like to say my impression of God as revealed by Jesus is one who treats us with dignity, love and compassion. I admit this is not the Jehovah of the Hebrew scriptures nor what some religionist convey. But Jesus was the reality that the shadow reflected, and who ever saw him saw God. Its a beautiful message too me.

    Jst2laws

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