The great crowd is first pictured dead in rev. 5 , so maybe the heavenly calling is the hope in Christ and therefore the ones who are true Christians have there names remembered in heaven. When its all over here on earth and the tri ulation is over these are resurected chapter 7 and like was said earlier don't have to go through a second judgment. Then the new Jerusalem comes down and all faithful ones return to earth.
The Christian Hope--Is it in Heaven or on Earth?
by DS211 39 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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heathen
revs 7 , sounds like the crowd is on earth , in contrast to the 144k who are resurrected and enter the city of new jerusalem in heaven via the pearl gates , revs 6 mentions the little flock in heaven waiting for the last of their fellow slaves to be executed ,6:11. The whole lords meal is a death pact , those professing undying love for christ and GOD recieve holy spirit and are to be the pillars of the church on earth with prophesying . The final test for them is death by the worlds political powers . Women are not part of the 144k which is another problem I have with WTBTS dogma . Another topic all together
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Indian Larry
Here are some scriptures I looked up about this awhile ago.
(Matthew 5:9) . . .”Happy are the peaceable since they will be called “sons of God”
(Matthew 5:1) . . .”Happy are those conscious of their spiritual need since the kingdom of the heavens belongs to them”
(Matthew 5:5) . . .“Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth.”
Note: Jesus here is clearly describing those who are called “sons of God” and those to whom the kingdom of the heavens belongs to. Of course the Watchtower teaches us that these ones are ONLY the 144,000, but if that is correct than why does it go on to say that “they will inherit the earth”? These scriptures (and others) show that the “kingdom of the heavens” is on “the earth”
Other scriptures that show that the kingdom of the heavens is the same as the kingdom of God.
Kingdom of the Heavens = Kingdom of God
(Matthew 3:1, 2) . . .In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Ju·de′a, 2 saying: “REPENT, for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near .”
(Mark 1:14, 15) 14 Now after John was put under arrest Jesus went into Gal′i·lee, preaching the good news of God 15 and saying: “The appointed time has been fulfilled, and the kingdom of God has drawn near . Be repentant,. . .
(Matthew 13:24) . . .Another illustration he set before them, saying: “ The kingdom of the heavens has become like a man that sowed fine seed in his field . . .
(Mark 4:26) . . .So he went on to say: “ In this way the kingdom of God is just as when a man casts the seed upon the ground . . .
(Matthew 19:23) . . .But Jesus said to his disciples: “ Truly I say to YOU that it will be a difficult thing for a rich man to get into the kingdom of the heavens .
(Mark 10:23) . . .After looking around Jesus said to his disciples: “ How difficult a thing it will be for those with money to enter into the kingdom of God!”
(Acts 3:20, 21) . . .and that he may send forth the Christ appointed for YOU, Jesus, 21 whom heaven, indeed, must hold within itself until the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke through the mouth of his holy prophets of old time. . .
Note: If Jesus will be in heaven UNTIL the times of restoration, does that not imply that he will leave heaven to come to restore the earth? In other words he will be in heaven UNTIL the times of restoration, after that time he will not be in heaven any longer he will be on earth as then he will not be in heaven, he will be on earth.
(Acts 1:11) . . .and they said: “Men of Gal′i·lee, why do YOU stand looking into the sky? This Jesus who was received up from YOU into the sky will come thus in the same manner as YOU have beheld him going into the sky.” Note: Jesus coming must be visible according to this scripture. If the apostle “beheld” him going into the sky that means they saw him. If his departure was invisible then they would not have been able to behold or see him. So it seems clear that the manner that they beheld him was visible.
(Matthew 26:29) . . .But I tell YOU, I will by no means drink henceforth any of this product of the vine until that day when I drink it new with YOU in the kingdom of my Father.. . . Note: Jesus here is saying that he will drink from the vine in the kingdom. Are there grapes in heaven?
(Luke 23:39-43) “Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise” Note: Since the paradise will be on earth, this scripture implies that Jesus be on earth “with” the evildoer. Just the same as with Abraham, Issac and the prophets of old.
(Matthew 8:11) But I tell YOU that many from eastern parts and western parts will com and recline at the table with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of the heavens.
So, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will be on earth, and the bible says that they will be in the kingdom of god, but the Jehovah’s witnesses can not be in the kingdom of God because that is limited only to the 144,000 according to the “faithful slave”
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Indian Larry
If you really want to ask your family some questions that will get them thinking but not raise any of the normal "apostate" flags I HIGHLY reccomend listening to this podcast:
http://apologeticfront.com/category/podcast/
The guy never was a witness but he knows them inside out. He is not argumentative or bitter but he raises very good valid questions in a way I have not seen done before. He also has some audio debates with active witnesses for download. I put them on my phone and listen while driving to work. Very Very interesting. Here is a link to a blog post he did on the heaven/earth question.
http://apologeticfront.com/2012/11/10/do-all-faithful-christians-go-to-heaven/
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Indian Larry
Actually here is a debate on the very subject. I have listened to it and I think if you are interested in the heaven/earth question you will enjoy this:
Debate on the “two classes”: All New Covenant Christians will Live Forever in Heaven with Christ
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Separation of Powers
"christian" = "heaven" There is no other ultimate reward for a Christian according to the New Testament.
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Separation of Powers
Oh, sorry, after the faithful are saved and receive their heavenly reward...what happens then is anyone's guess...Back to earth? Why not? If you believe this type of thing, anything is possible.
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DS211
Thanks everyone for the info! Should be good to use in planting questions...indian--i will deflisten to those thanks.
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designs
Professor, and Presbyterian, Barry Hoffstetter and I had a lengthy conversation on this topic. He admitted that from the pulpit pastors are telling their congregations its heaven but the official teaching is that the faithful return to the earth with Jesus and live forever.
So I asked him what's the difference then between a JW and a Presbyterian lol
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DS211
The difference is whether they teach trinity and/or whether they put followers in life threatening situations for doctrine that is,at best, LOOSELY Bible-based....or speculation. Thats pretty much all i see so far lol