Ruby said: "Indeed social science tells us that some connections produce bad things in some parts of the world whereas those same connections produce good things in another part of the world and this is what makes life unfair and fragile."
Why does a God of love and justice allow life to be unfair?
The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday
by cofty 2596 Replies latest jw experiences
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defender of truth
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defender of truth
Theology searching for an answer to this problem solves nothing, and really means nothing, if the God of Christian theism does not exist. Searching for a loving God that exists but allows things like the Tsunami disaster to happen reminds me of this quote:
"I recall the story of the philosopher and the theologian. The two were engaged in disputation and the theologian used the old quip about a philosopher resembling a blind man, in a dark room, looking for a black cat — which wasn’t there. “That may be,” said the philosopher: “but a theologian would have found it.”
– Julian Huxley
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cofty
some connections produce bad things in some parts of the world whereas those same connections produce good things in another part of the world .... Something along the lines of a truth process would establish why the asian tsunami caused such huge loss of life in that area under those social conditions and why it would not have if social conditions and connections were different. - Ruby
What is the view like from the top of you ivory tower?
The fact remains that the god of christian theism passively observed a wave begin to rise from the ocean on 26th December 2004 and begin to grow in size as it rushed towards thousands of miles of coastline around the Pacifc Rim. It was heading for people living in a wide range of social conditions but all of them were in mortal danger.
It would have been as easy for this god to calm this embryonic wave as it is for you to turn off tap. This god did nothing. 250 000 men, women and children drowned and millions of lives were devastated.
So far all attempts to explain god's callous inaction have proven to be vacuous and/or self-contradictory.
Please take a moment to read this post from doofdaddy from 7 months ago...
Psac this is important for you to read.
I realise this comment will be buried but I must write it. I find it difficult to not get emotional seeing theists defending god's (lack of) actions regarding the 2004 tsunami. I saw the results first hand in Sri Lanka. I saw the children with stones for eyes. No adult relatives to care for them. I had the snotty nosed kid with cross eyes dragging his useless leg and arm wanting money. He only had grandma left with no income. He was normal before the wave. I saw the train pushed on its side that had hundreds of dead in it, the smashed buildings the obscenely washed open cemetery, the snapped palm trees, the hopelessness. Don't tell me there is lessons for my compassion in this! Bullshit!. My brother was in Phuket when the tsunami hit there. He's a quiet guy just saying it was hard to see and hear kids screaming for their mum and dad at the airport while being evacuated.
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sunny23
we need to figure out..."why the asian tsunami caused such huge loss of life in that area under those social conditions and why it would not have if social conditions and connections were different."Ruby
RUBY: It's true that if there were advanced "tsunami-watch" technologies in place that could alert people hours prior to the wave hitting and get that alert to people who don't have tv or smart phones then yes there would have been far fewer casualties. This doesn't negate the fact that humans have to try and advance socially and technologically to avoid being killed by God's failed creation of an earth. What kind of God creates an earth that he knows will cause devastating catastrophies killing his precious humans only to let them figure it out for themselves? It's like a parent putting their 10yr old in a car on the highway with a brick on the accelerator. Let him figure it out right? Its now the kids struggle for life in a disasterous situation his parent put him in. How is that LOVE!?!
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Simon
In practically every other sphere of humanity, we value the opinions of independent observers more than people who will have a bias because of personal involvement.
We prefer to read reviews of books by readers, not the author; of films by viewers, not the cast; of potential employees by their peers, not themselves.
And yet, when it comes to god, his goodness / mercy / awesomeness ... well, it all comes from him or his salesman repeating his words (or more accurately, the words of a previous salesman).
When did we hear anyone say "yeah, I don't follow Christianity but I have to hand it to that God - he's one hell of a loving and merciful son of a bitch!"
Because no one has ever seen, heard, smelt or stood in the piles of love and mercy coming out of his fat ass - that's why! And yet some still want to sell that shit.
If anything was the ultimate manifestation of something then I think evidence would be overwhelming and abundant. That fact that the salesmen struggle to change the subject when you ask them anything at all about the product is evidence enough.
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bohm
Imagine if there HAD in fact been an advanced tsunami warning system in place in 2004 and they had detected the tsunami as well as realised it's magnitude hours before it hit land. However the leaders of the tsunami warning system desided not to issue an warning.
Can we imagine they would NOT be put in jail for criminal neglect?
Suppose they had said: Yah, we knew it was coming and we estimated it would kill about 1/4 million people. However we didn't want to interfer with their their free will by telling them about that tsunami. Also, we figured all the death and destruction might motivate some people around the world to make support concerts and give money for the tsunami victims which would make them feel good about themselves which is a good thing. So on a balance, we thought it better to issue no warning.
Would that make ANY sense AT ALL?
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sunny23
In reference to bohms great analogy: Riddle me this Psacramento.
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Ruby456
you've all made excellent arguments - thank you.
but bohm the earth itself gave plenty of early warnings. another thing no one here has addressed is the issue I raised and particularly now in view of the point raised by doofdaddy - what is it about humans that enables them to heal and move on from such awful disasters?
defenderoftruth asked
Ruby said: "Another aspect of Theism in action would be to ask the people who lost family and property how they feel now. Do they still see themselves as victims? Which organisations or what thinking helped them to heal?"
Have you ever lost someone in death that you couldn't ever replace? Some wounds never heal.
You sound like a philosopher with no experience of what they are talking about.I'm no philosopher let alone one with no experience - on that I agree with you
But Freud who was an atheist understood the importance of individual and collective grief and healing in order to move on.
And yes I have lost people in death that I couldn't ever replace and bear the scars rather than the wounds nowadays. losing someone in death and thinking I would never heal and then finding one day that it is possible to heal was very liberating. Of course this does not mean the individuals were forgotten or replaced.
here is an interesting quote from Freud regarding religion
"The idea of God was not a lie but a device of the unconscious which needed to be decoded by psychology. A personal god was nothing more than an exalted father-figure: desire for such a deity sprang from infantile yearnings for a powerful, protective father, for justice and fairness and for life to go on forever. God is simply a projection of these desires, feared and worshipped by human beings out of an abiding sense of helplessness. Religion belonged to the infancy of the human race; it had been a necessary stage in the transition from childhood to maturity. It had promoted ethical values which were essential to society. Now that humanity had come of age, however, it should be left behind."A History of God
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cofty
the earth itself gave plenty of early warnings - Ruby
No it did not.
There was no opportunity for anybody to take evasive action. God had plenty of time to prevent disaster and did nothing.
You have still not offered a single word in reponse to the actual topic.
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defender of truth
Ruby said: "here is an interesting quote from Freud regarding religion"..."A personal god was nothing more than an exalted father-figure: desire for such a deity sprang from infantile yearnings for a powerful, protective father, for justice and fairness and for life to go on forever. God is simply a projection of these desires.."
So you don't believe in a personal God, then? Either that or you don't agree with the quote, that you just threw in with no explanation of the relevance of it to this thread?
This thread is aimed at the Christian God.