JWs, evolution and fossils

by Oh Gawd 13 Replies latest jw friends

  • Oh Gawd
    Oh Gawd

    A while back my FIL was on a kick about earthquakes, tornadoes and hurricanes. After bombarding him with actual facts showing the WTS is full of shit when declaring these activies to be increasing in frequency he's now dropped that subject. Of coure he never admitted to being wrong..haha. Instead he agreed that you can't always believe what you read. I assume he doesn't apply this to the WTS though.

    The funny part is he had my info for about a month before bringing up that he had read my emails. Thats odd. Maybe he was trying to muster a response but couldn't? I don't know. However, as he was going on about not believing everything you read he brought up evolution as an example. I didn't challenge him at the time. I was in a, wow, this guy is a total idiot, mindset. But, it got me wondering.

    What does the WTS say about evolution? I know they dispute the fossil record, but on what grounds? I know they have some whacked out theory about a water canopy and how that throws off radio carbon dating. I think I've also heard him say something like theres no evidence of one speies turning into another, which, of course, is completely untrue.

    I want to have some fun with him, but when you're dealing with someone whose mind is mush and filled with irrational ideas it's hard to predict what his answers will be. Often times I'mleft thinking, wtf is this retard talking about. I'd like to be better prepared when I start to pull the wings off this fly.

  • metatron

    This is why I post stuff about dinosaurs - to show that horrid monsters roamed the earth and either evolution made 'em or God is a lunatic.

    And they ate each other. And they evolved into birds.


  • cofty

    They are old earth creationists but they still believe A&E were literal and lived only 6000 years ago.

    Their argument against evolution goes as follows... "complexity, complexity, complexity, complexity, complexity, complexity, complexity, complexity, .... therefore Jehovah"

    They are entirely clueless and have not the first clue about science.

  • Oh Gawd
    Oh Gawd

    didn't even think about Dinosaurs. So they don't belive they existed?

  • cofty

    Yes they do. I think they imagine they were left out of the Ark!

  • snare&racket

    The JW's feed off Watchtower literature, becuase Watchtower lost the literature battle on evolution in the 80's due to overwhelming evidence, despite the average JW not knowing this, the literature has gone cold on reasons why evolution is not true. The point I am making is that most JW's have arguments against evolution from christian literature in the 80's, based on pseudo science arguments from as early as the late 1800's.

    Expect to hear that you cant trust carbon dating, but conquer that by stating that over 32 elements are now used to date and they all overlap. That the same science is used to dose all medications, especially radiotherapy and chemotherspy, if it was wrong science we would not be able to dose it. Also ask him how he thinks historians dsted the dead sea scrolls?

    Expect him to say there are no fossils proving evolution and any that do are fake. The WT did a brochure on evolution about 4 years ago, it admitted to tonnes of evidence for evolution in fossils. It didnt say it like that, it was actually trying to be-little the evidence, but in doing so admitted the evidence existed. By the way there are now BILLIONS of fossils, they added a quote that said paraphrased "this century, there is enough evidence for evolution, to fill a train car" they just so happen to forget to note that quote was from the 1800's. Besides all this, we no longer need the fossils, BUT WE DO HAVE THEM, as all the data is stored in DNA anyway and it matches the evolutionary tree perfectly.. Also he will know nothing of ancestors of humans, non at all, they were told that neanderthals were humans with disease, despite DNA proving that false a long time ago

    Dinosaurs is a weird one, some JWs believe they existed, some dont, depends ob the excuses they were given locally. He certainly wont believe they died 50 million years ago following 150 million years of exsistence.

    Lastly expect ridiculous analogies about probability, based on no science or evidence. He wont know about complex molecules forming by themselves, such as carbohydrates forming in space, or nucleic acids, the building blocks of DNA forming from thin air (miller experiment) all because atoms and molecules have pos and neg charges so naturally come together and interact. The universe is one huge labratory. Bit he will tell you its like throwing airoplane parts from a plane and them forming a plane by accident in mid air. They have no concept of evolution.... that natural selection happens over hundreds of millions of years and that mutations offer natural selection the 'plane parts' continously. He wont know that we can see and even induce evolution in a species. If he is semi informed he may say he believes in micro evolution but not macro. This is easy to explain, they are the same thing, macro is just over a longer period of time.

    Simply ask him to explain the theory of evolution, he wont be able to.... Maybe ask him if it makes sense to him or seems logical, when he says 'no' ask him how many textbooks he has read on evolution, when he says none... Ask him if it is logical why it does not make sense to him? He hasnt studied it!

    snare xxx

    oh and be prepared for "ok, so why is it just a theory?" ...... Of course science nomenclature is unique to science, gravity is a theory in science! Atoms are a theory! Theory = collection of evidence.

  • Miss.Fit


    That was the exact coversation my daughter had with me. I was the jw and she was answering those objections.

    My advice: go slow. It is still taking me awhile to erase the automatic responses. I have asked my daughter the same questions in different ways trying to understand how wrong I was and how little I really knew.

    She would listen to the reasonings I would spout out and show me proof that it was not possible.

  • snare&racket

    Miss fit, sorry yes, my reply was a lot of information all at once, but I wasn't suggesting to cover it all, simply to be prepared for those typical responses from JW's.

    Give your daughter a hug and a high 5 from me, it is not easy to tackle such mindsets, and miss fit a huge pat on the back for you for being open minded enough to question everything you were taught. You are 100% right, it takes time, a long time. It took me years too.

    Miss fit, if you are interested in books or videos etc for specific issues you are struggling to get your head around, please PM me anytime, I am not an authority or smart arse, it is simply that I walked the same path not that long ago xxx

  • Oh Gawd
    Oh Gawd

    Snare and racket, thanks.

    I have studied evolution for over 30 years( a promise I made to a couple professors who wanted me to study the sciences instead of persuing Law and Business degrees..haha) so I'm not to worried about the conversation. However, the JW's seem to have some theories that are unique. The fact that they are taught by people who don't understand the subject matter leads to a varity of opinions making it even more difficult to know which hairbrain theory he'll latch on to. Sometimes he'll even conflate two theories and make up his own.

    Btw, not to be a jerk, but I should clarify some of your info.

    First, there are not billions of known fossils in the record. Not even close. (edit; I think you're talking about Fossils period for which there are probably billions if you count all the stuff people just pick up and take home or ignore altogether..I'm talking about those that provide the record for the evolution of species)

    The box car quote you refer to was from the publication, "The Origin of Life, 5 questions worth asking" which I believe was published in 2010. The quote was actually a misquote taken from a book written by Fred Smith. And, the quote was that there wasn't enough fossils to fill a box car. Obviously that is not true.

    Another question, do JWs have a position of transitionary fossils like Ambulocetus (walking whale) or Archaeopteryx (bird to dinosaur)

  • Billy the Ex-Bethelite
    Billy the Ex-Bethelite

    JWs generally treat evolution as if it's an argument they've already won and have to reason to even discuss. If someone wants to discuss evolution, the JW will just give them a colorful brochure. If they still believe in evolution or question the material, well, obviously that person isn't a right-hearted sheep. Frankly, the WT material is garbage because it is designed to tell you what questions to ask and ignores every other issue about dinosaurs, mosquitoes, etc.

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