Another problem for JW apologists

by Jeffro 223 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • scholar
    scholar

    Ann O Maly

    Post 3776

    No the Jewish population as a whole captive in Babylon were advised that their period of Exile would be 70 years notwithstanding that for some captives who were deported 10 years earlier then their period would in fact be longer if they lived that long. There is no mention anywhere in Scripture of a 80 year Exile so your comment is superflous.

    scholar JW

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    scholar:

    No the Jewish population as a whole captive in Babylon were advised that their period of Exile would be 70 years notwithstanding that for some captives who were deported 10 years earlier then their period would in fact be longer if they lived that long. There is no mention anywhere in Scripture of a 80 year Exile so your comment is superflous.

    LOL. There is also 'no mention anywhere in Scripture of a 70 year Exile'.

    Most (66% according to Jeremiah 52:28-30) of the Jewish exiles were actually taken in early 597BCE, 10.5 years before the destruction of Jerusalem. Years of Jewish exile in the Bible are only ever referenced from the exile that occurred in 597BCE (617BCE in JW land). See 2 Kings 25:27; Jeremiah 52:31; Ezekiel 1:2, 33:21, 40:1.

  • scholar
    scholar

    Jeffro

    Post 4210

    Despite the scam my computer is now running better than ever and I can finally use the latest Internet Explorer which was not previously possible. I have been to the bank and fixed my account and have advised Western Union of the scam. I have also installed the latest Kaspersky version so everything seems to be OK. Now back to business!!!

    Yes some intelligence and insight are certainly required and I hope I am up to the task. Arithmetic is necessary but chronology is much more than addition and substraction as I am sure you would agree.

    All chronologists proceed upon the certain assumptions and we have have a certain theological viewpoint of history then so be it for chronology is simply an adjunct to history it is not something that stands apart from history. If it is deemed a preconceived numerology by yourself then so be it for being faithful to the prophetic word should be of concern to all Christians.

    We believe most firmly as does many famous expositors that Daniel's seventy weeks of years prophecy is Messianic being fulfilled in the appearance and death of our Lord Jesus Christ and we have not distorted the reigns of Persia as you claim but that is another subject for another time.

    What I have seen thus far shows that our understanding of Hoshea's reign is correct and I am confident that when I really start to dig I will find further support if I am wrong on this then I will submit an inquiry to Bethel in Brooklyn. But experience with WT chronology over many decades gives me great confidence. What further interest me is the work of Christine Tetley and her research on chronology is very controversial amongst scholars but her book I do not have so I must get a copy and see what she has written. Very excited indeed!!!

    I am pleased that you appreciate my use of 'corrective' as a technical term for chronology, in the past I have used the expression 'fine tuning' in order to achieve harmong between our chronology and the secular but I simply appropriated the term from a paper by Rodger C Young 'Ezekiel 40:1 As a Corrective For Seven Wrong Ideas In Biblical Interpreation' in AUSS,2006, vol 44, No.2, pp.265-83. All chronologies have problems for none can be claimed to be infallible, in the case of the Divide Monarchy our chronology is purely' suggestive' but my means of applying the corrective 'seventy years then we have achieved harmonization.

    Your criticism of our interpretation of Jeremiah 29:10 is baseless because the context of that chapter clearly shows that the Jewish population or nation as a whole would remain in Babylon for seventy years. We interpret the seventy years as a definite historic period of desolation-servitude-exile whereas you interpret the period only as one of Babylonish domination so according to our interpretation the criticisms that you have raised are rendered baseless as I have explained on this forum endlessly. For us the seventy years commenced in the seventh month 607 BCE with the destruction of Jerusalem and ended with the Return of the Jewish population in the seventh month 537 BCE. During that period the Land of Judah was desolate for seventy years, the Jewish nation was in Exile in Babylon for seventy years under the domination of Babylon as World Power for that same seventy years. In this way all of the seventy texts of Jeremiah, Ezra, Daniel and Zechariah written from different standpoints and times are harmonized and in accordance of the description of the seventy years by Josephus. QED

    scholar JW

  • scholar
    scholar

    Jeffro

    Post 4211

    Does this mean that you deny the Exile, that the Jewish nation was not exiled in Babylon? The fact of the matter is that Jeremiah in Jeremiah 29:10 clearly asserts the fact of the Exile in Babylon for seventy years. All that you are doing is making reference to various deportations of the Jews at different times which does not minimize the fact that the Jews were exiled in Babylon for at least seventy years.

    scholar JW

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    scholar:

    Despite the scam my computer is now running better than ever and I can finally use the latest Internet Explorer which was not previously possible.

    You really should get it properly checked. Remote control software (including Windows' built in Remote Desktop) is not necessarily malware and may not be detected as a 'threat', but may have been configured by the scammers for subsequent access. Fail to do so at your own risk. Was it also you who was infected with the 'SnapDo' browser hi-jacking malware?

    Yes some intelligence and insight are certainly required and I hope I am up to the task.

    Apparently not.

    Arithmetic is necessary but chronology is much more than addition and substraction as I am sure you would agree.

    Now you're just waffling.

    All chronologists proceed upon the certain assumptions and we have have a certain theological viewpoint of history then so be it for chronology is simply an adjunct to history it is not something that stands apart from history. If it is deemed a preconceived numerology by yourself then so be it for being faithful to the prophetic word should be of concern to all Christians.

    You're still waffling. No information here.

    We believe most firmly as does many famous expositors that Daniel's seventy weeks of years prophecy is Messianic being fulfilled in the appearance and death of our Lord Jesus Christ and we have not distorted the reigns of Persia as you claim but that is another subject for another time.

    You're welcome to believe all you like. It still isn't true.

    What I have seen thus far shows that our understanding of Hoshea's reign is correct and I am confident that when I really start to dig I will find further support if I am wrong on this then I will submit an inquiry to Bethel in Brooklyn. But experience with WT chronology over many decades gives me great confidence. What further interest me is the work of Christine Tetley and her research on chronology is very controversial amongst scholars but her book I do not have so I must get a copy and see what she has written. Very excited indeed!!!

    Make sure you provide updates on how your 'inquiry' to Brooklyn goes.

    I am pleased that you appreciate my use of 'corrective' as a technical term for chronology, in the past I have used the expression 'fine tuning' in order to achieve harmong between our chronology and the secular but I simply appropriated the term from a paper by Rodger C Young 'Ezekiel 40:1 As a Corrective For Seven Wrong Ideas In Biblical Interpreation' in AUSS,2006, vol 44, No.2, pp.265-83. All chronologies have problems for none can be claimed to be infallible, in the case of the Divide Monarchy our chronology is purely' suggestive' but my means of applying the corrective 'seventy years then we have achieved harmonization.

    I don't "appreciate" your use of 'corrective'. Your use of the term is quite stupid. It is especially stupid in view of the fact that Ezekiel 40:1 is one of the scriptures that confirms that Jewish exile was not enumerated from the year in which Jerusalem was destroyed by the Babylonians. Young's 'corrective' is in reference to defeating exactly the kind of errors inherent in JW chronology that seek to attach the 70 years to Jewish exile.

    Your criticism of our interpretation of Jeremiah 29:10 is baseless because the context of that chapter clearly shows that the Jewish population or nation as a whole would remain in Babylon for seventy years.

    The context doesn't show that at all. The context indicates that Jews exiled in 597 BCE were told in 594 BCE that Babylon would be dominant for 70 years. Your further claim about the "nation as a whole" in exile for 70 years is also wrong. Most of the Jews were in exile for a little over 59 years, some were in exile for 49 years, and nearly as many were only in exile for about 43 years.

    We interpret the seventy years as a definite historic period of desolation-servitude-exile whereas you interpret the period only as one of Babylonish domination so according to our interpretation the criticisms that you have raised are rendered baseless as I have explained on this forum endlessly.

    Jeremiah 27:8-11 clearly states that exile was a punishment for nations that would not submit to Babylon. Jeremiah chapter 25 indicates that the Jews could not avoid the calamity (which affected different nations at different time during Babylon's 70 years), but it was not too late for them to avoid exile. It doesn't matter how much you try to ignore that. You're still wrong.

    For us the seventy years commenced in the seventh month 607 BCE with the destruction of Jerusalem and ended with the Return of the Jewish population in the seventh month 537 BCE.

    607 is wrong. Correct year is 587BCE.

    537 is also wrong. Correct year is 538BCE.

    During that period the Land of Judah was desolate for seventy years, the Jewish nation was in Exile in Babylon for seventy years under the domination of Babylon as World Power for that same seventy years.

    I am aware of your superstitious numerology. It's just wrong. The Bible never mentions 70 years of exile. It just doesn't. The claim that 'Babylonian domination' of all the nations counts from the destruction of Jerusalem is also simply wrong. Babylon replaced Assyria as the dominant World Power in 609BCE. After that, different nations experienced calamity under Babylon at different times, but its period of dominance is a static period that definitely ended in 539BCE. (The JW belief that Nebuchadnezzar was 'above the kingdom of heaven' during the 70 years also contradicts the story about Nebuchadnezzar being subject to God during his supposed '7 years of madness'.)

    In this way all of the seventy texts of Jeremiah, Ezra, Daniel and Zechariah written from different standpoints and times are harmonized and in accordance of the description of the seventy years by Josephus. QED

    Josephus correctly indicates in his later writings that the exile was fifty years. Further, he explicitly provides the period of 182.5 years (from the fall of Israel until Cyrus) that proves JW chronology wrong (another fact you simply ignore). All of the relevant scriptures are already harmonious without relying on JW superstitions. I have already shown this in detail here, here and here.

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    scholar:

    Does this mean that you deny the Exile, that the Jewish nation was not exiled in Babylon?

    Huh? How did you possibly get that from my statement:

    Most (66% according to Jeremiah 52:28-30) of the Jewish exiles were actually taken in early 597BCE, 10.5 years before the destruction of Jerusalem. Years of Jewish exile in the Bible are only ever referenced from the exile that occurred in 597BCE (617BCE in JW land). See 2 Kings 25:27; Jeremiah 52:31; Ezekiel 1:2, 33:21, 40:1.

    The fact remains that the Bible never mentions 70 years of exile.

    The fact of the matter is that Jeremiah in Jeremiah 29:10 clearly asserts the fact of the Exile in Babylon for seventy years.

    No. It doesn't. It just doesn't. The New World Translation words it that way, but that is not a literal rendering and is not supported at all by the context.

    In the JW interpretation, Jeremiah wrote to Jews (in 614BCE) already in Babylon (since 617BCE), to tell them that they will be in Babylon for 70 years, without telling them that the period starts from some unspecified future event, and that they would return from exile only after their exile has already ended. It makes no sense.

    The actual context is that Jeremiah wrote to Jews (in 594BCE) already in Babylon (since 597BCE) to tell them that after Babylon's 70 years (which started in 609BCE and ended in 539BCE), the Jews would then repent (which is what Daniel [9:1-19] also later 'discerned'), and then they would be allowed to return to Jerusalem (538BCE).

  • scholar
    scholar

    Jeffro

    Post 4212

    I note your advice about getting the computer checked out. As far as I know I was not infected by a Snap Do browser soft ware nut if I find i will delete it.Any other advice?

    Regardless of your opinion I believe the use of the 'corrective' is most appropriate for it all comes down to methodology.

    Rodger Young's article has nothing to do with WT chronology but was simply chosen because one text can be used as a corrective in establishing a chronology and resolving the problems that Young listed. For Ezekiel his exile and those with him in Chebar were part of that first deportation so their exile began years earlier than those who were exiled at the Fall as you correctly note.

    The context of Jeremiah 29;10 is a prophecy addressed to the then exile people with instructions as to how they were to live out their exile in Babylon. Clearly this first group of exiles would be joined by the bulk of the population after the Fall so altogether the exiled people would have serve Babylon and remain therein for seventy years. The fact that the seventy years was a period to be fulfilled indicates that it was not limited to a earlier smaller group but to the much larger nation as a whole and would be commensurate with the desolation of the land. Jeremiah who later wrote Lamentations and Daniel in his chapter nine of his book reers to the nation as a whole not just to smaller group of elites.

    Nevertheless the exile was a fact and was a consequence of their apostasy and rebellion so it came to pass that the Exile proper began with the Fall and ended with the Return and there is no way that this can be argued against.

    I have never claimed otherwise for the Bible simply refers to the 'seventy years' or 'seventy years of Jeremiah' so it has to be interpreted in the light of other seventy years texts and against the background of prophecy and of history. We have our interpretation and you have your own. Nor does the Bible speaks of 'seventy years of Babylonish domination' so this simply is your narrow view of the seventy years.

    Josephus on only one occasion refers to the seventy years as one of 'fifty' but this anomaly is easily and has been explained.

    scholar JW

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    scholar:

    Rodger Young's article has nothing to do with WT chronology

    Smartest thing you've said all day.

    There is nothing of merit in the rest of your latest reply. Your claims of the relative sizes of the deporations to Babylon are not supported by scripture (in fact, they contradict Jeremiah 52:28-30), and your comments bear no resemblance at all to the actual context Jeremiah 29. And since there was an additional deportation in Nebuchadnezzar's 23rd year (not counting accession year; 582BCE), your claim that exile was counted for 'the whole nation' after the deportation in Nebuchadnezzar's 18th year (not counting accession year; 587BCE) is immediately shown to be the lie it is. And it doesn't seem to have gotten through that thick skull of yours yet that serving Babylon doesn't mean exile; exile is explicitly stated by Jeremiah to be a punishment for nations that refused to serve Babylon. Again, you've simply ignored the most obvious problems, and repeated yourself in regard to your beliefs that contradict what the Bible actually says. I think we're done here. Once again, you have dismally failed to convince anyone of Watch Tower numerology.

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    scholar:

    I note your advice about getting the computer checked out. As far as I know I was not infected by a Snap Do browser soft ware nut if I find i will delete it.Any other advice?

    Beyond the general advice I've already given, there are too many variables, particularly since I have no direct way of knowing what the phone scammers might have installed or changed. It would be best if you have a professional look at it directly, letting them know you've been the victim of a scam.

    If you don't want to do that, your other option would be to reinstall Windows (a clean install, not an upgrade). Make sure you have a backup of your data first. You would then need to reinstall your other software.

  • AnnOMaly
    AnnOMaly

    It's already been covered, but repetition for emphasis, huh?

    No the Jewish population as a whole captive in Babylon were advised that their period of Exile would be 70 years notwithstanding that for some captives who were deported 10 years earlier then their period would in fact be longer if they lived that long. There is no mention anywhere in Scripture of a 80 year Exile so your comment is superflous.

    The "Jewish population as a whole captive in Babylon" was the one taken in 617 BCE (WT time), right? The Bible explicitly states that this deportation was by far the largest. The relatively minor '607' deportation hadn't happened yet, and may never have happened (hence the continued appeal by God to change their ways so they could remain peacefully in Jerusalem). Consequently, you are implying that God misled the "Jewish population as a whole captive in Babylon" by informing them they would be "captive in Babylon" for only 70 years when He should have said 80.

    You cannot get around this glaring discrepancy ... although it's fun to watch you try.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit