Another problem for JW apologists

by Jeffro 223 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • scholar
    scholar

    Jeffro

    Post 4218

    Jeremiah 27 has absolutely nothing to with your hypothesis, it explicitly states that the nations and Judah would be brought into servitude to Nebuchadnezzer concluding the chapter with restoration, an end to their exile in Babylon whereupon the utensils and the people would be brought back home. No one is denying that the surrounding nations were made to serve Babylon but the seventy years alone proved to be aperiod of servitude-exile and deolation of Judah.

    Albertz does not waffle, he does not need to waffle in his 460 page analysis of the this most crucial period of Jewish history- The Exile. His book is published by the prestigious Society of Biblical Literature. Jeffro is infuriated and frustrated when scholar educates him into various areas of scholarship that he chooses to ignore when ranting and raving about the wondrous WT Bible Chronology.

    scholar JW

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    The responses given by 'scholar' really are an interesting case study of the mind of someone brainwashed by a religious sect.

    scholar:

    Jeremiah 27 has absolutely nothing to with your hypothesis

    If you really believe that (and apart from the grammatical problem), you lack the most basic comprehensions skill of the subject and are not qualified to discuss it. As usual, 'scholar' seems to think that simply mentioning the chapter somehow confirms his views; however, the fact remains that the content (already quoted above) quite definitely indicates the meaning of 'serving Babylon'.

    it explicitly states that the nations and Judah would be brought into servitude to Nebuchadnezzer

    Yes, it does state that all the nations would serve Babylon. And it explicitly states that they could do so in their own land.

    concluding the chapter with restoration, an end to their exile in Babylon whereupon the utensils and the people would be brought back home.

    The last verse (22) states that the treasures would be returned when God turns attention to them. Jeremiah 29:10-13 clearly indicates that such attention would be given only after the 70 years had already ended.

    No one is denying that the surrounding nations were made to serve Babylon but the seventy years alone proved to be aperiod of servitude-exile and deolation of Judah.

    The "seventy years" are explicitly stated as being a period during which all the nations would serve Babylon, which Jeremiah 27:11 says they would do in their own land if they did not resist.

    Albertz does not waffle, he does not need to waffle in his 460 page analysis of the this most crucial period of Jewish history- The Exile. His book is published by the prestigious Society of Biblical Literature.

    Albertz' religious bias is clear. However, neither he nor the Society of Biblical Literature supports the Watch Tower Society's chronology anyway.

    Jeffro is infuriated and frustrated when scholar educates him into various areas of scholarship that he chooses to ignore when ranting and raving about the wondrous WT Bible Chronology.

    pseudo-scholar's lack of basic comprehension skills is certainly frustrating, but I would say I'm more bemused than infuriated by his inconsistency and irrationality. He cherry-picks from religious sources for the smallest detail that he imagines is remotely similar to some aspect of the flawed chronology taught by his idol, even though those other sources don't support his position.

    Given the extremely low quality of the 'arguments' presented by 'scholar', I'm left wondering whether he doesn't really believe JW dogma at all, and that he's just playing devil's advocate to show just how ridiculous the JW dogma really is.

  • AnnOMaly
    AnnOMaly

    No, the Jewish Exile proper was not at the first deportation of the 'selected ones' of Judah in 617 BCE but the second deportation with the Fall of Jerusalem in 607 BCE. I refer you to Rainer Albertz' Israel In Exile, 2003, on p.2:"Thus it is usual to have the exilic period begin with the destruction of Jerusalem and the final elimination of Judah as a state in 587/586 BCE, even though there was already a golah (group of exiles) in Babylonia in 598/597 BCE, and Gedaliah's attempted reform and a further deportation in 582 still lay in the future.(Jer.52:30) END OF STORY !!!!!!

    (I knew this would be fun.) I couldn't care less what Albertz says. It is irrelevant to our discussion on Jer. 29:10 and its context. Seeing as you cannot accept that, under the WT time-line, Jehovah must have been misleading the the "Jewish population as a whole captive in Babylon" by informing them they would be "captive in Babylon" for only 70 years when He should have said 80, you have to make up another scenario to justify your untenable position: 'the exile only counts from the future "607" deportation.' As you well know (unless your imperfect memory has let you down again), this is absurd and Scripture itself falsifies your argument.

    Jer. 29:1-5, 10.

    These are the words of the letter that Jeremiah the prophet sent from Jerusalem to the rest of the elders among the exiled people, the priests, the prophets, and all the people, whom Neb·u·chad·nez′zar had taken into exile from Jerusalem to Babylon, after King Jec·o·ni′ah, the queen mother, the court officials, the princes of Judah and Jerusalem, and the craftsmen and the metalworkers had gone out of Jerusalem. ... It said:

    This is what Jehovah of armies, the God of Israel, says to all the exiled people, whom I have caused to go into exile from Jerusalem to Babylon, ‘Build houses and live in them. ...

    ... “For this is what Jehovah says, ‘When 70 years at Babylon are fulfilled, I will turn my attention to you, and I will make good my promise by bringing you back to this place.’

    Whom was Jehovah addressing, Neil? Who was the 'you' in v. 10? The people still in Jerusalem not yet exiled? You want us to believe you instead of the Bible's own testimony?

    I still do not understand why you persist in making yourself look like an idiot.

  • AnnOMaly
    AnnOMaly

    Given the extremely low quality of the 'arguments' presented by 'scholar', I'm left wondering whether he doesn't really believe JW dogma at all, and that he's just playing devil's advocate to show just how ridiculous the JW dogma really is.

    I've also periodically wondered the same thing LOL.

  • Bart Belteshassur
    Bart Belteshassur

    Why is it that the Judean chronology appears to hinge on the death of Josiah in 609 BCE, and are there any secular bibical links that prevent the movement of this date forward 1 or 2 years, or backwards by up to 8years?

    The Jehovahs Judgement link also flags up the question of the invasion of Egypt by the Babylonians, and as this historic event appears to be detailed in both Jeremiah and Ezekiel how does it fit with the redt of these chronologies?

    BB

  • Bart Belteshassur
    Bart Belteshassur

    Why is it that the Judean chronology appears to hinge on the death of Josiah in 609 BCE, and are there any secular bibical links that prevent the movement of this date forward 1 or 2 years, or backwards by up to 8years?

    The Jehovahs Judgement link also flags up the question of the invasion of Egypt by the Babylonians, and as this historic event appears to be detailed in both Jeremiah and Ezekiel how does it fit with the redt of these chronologies?

    BB

  • AnnOMaly
    AnnOMaly

    The Jehovahs Judgement link also flags up the question of the invasion of Egypt by the Babylonians, and as this historic event appears to be detailed in both Jeremiah and Ezekiel how does it fit with the redt of these chronologies?

    The invasion of Egypt is, in the Bible, a prophecy or warning of what would happen. Unfortunately, the Bible is silent on how the details of those prophecies were fulfilled and to what extent. The only extra-biblical clue we have is a poorly preserved fragment of a tablet which says that Nebuchadnezzar, in his 37th year (568/7 BCE), campaigned against Pharaoh Amasis. There is nothing to tell us what the outcome of that campaign was. We do know from archaeology that Amasis reigned for a long time after Nebuchadnezzar's campaign and that the land of Egypt was prosperous. The Jehovah's Judgment site fills in any gaps with speculation touted as historical fact. Jeffro's site goes into more detail (scroll half way down).

    Regarding Josiah - no, the year of his death can't be shifted. There are synchronisms with the Babylonian Chronicle - at least regarding the campaigns and battles between the army of Egypt and the Babylonians up at the Euphrates region which tally with the Bible's account.

    2 Ki. 23:29; 2 Chron. 35:20f.; Babylonian Chronicle 3

  • scholar
    scholar

    AnnOMaly

    Post 3783

    The audience that received the word of Jehovah as recorded in Jeremiah 29 were in fact those exiles of the first deportation as I have already stated and they were now in exile in Babylon or other places such as Ezekiel. This prophecy also states that the time would come for their release from Exile and that Exile ended with the Return of the whole population in 537 BCE the Fall of Babylon in 539 BCE. The simple fact of the matter is that there was a body of exiled people in Babylon as a result of Nebuchadmezzer's incursions into Jerusalem and all of these had to await the fulfillment of the seventy years otherwise you have several Exiles which of course becomes ridiculous.

    scholar JW

  • scholar
    scholar

    Jeffro

    Post 4219

    the simple fact of the matter is that the concept of Exile is problematic for your hypothesis on this key portion of biblical history. Jeremiah 27 and 29 both were directly addressed to the exiled people of the first deportation and as subsequent events as described by Jeremiah later included a much larger group of detainees or exiles who were all part of the EXILE. There was then a composite group residing in Babylon from shortly after the Fall of Jerusalem in 607 BCE right through until the Return to Judah in 537 BCE. Therefore this proves that the seventy years was indeed a period of Exile.

    Insults do not trouble me at all but merely reflect your character and desperation in trying to enforce your interpretations onto gullible minds. LOL

    The very fact of Judah' serving' nebuchadnezzer is the very proof that in accord with both Jeremiah ch 27 and ch 29 of the Exile in Babylon for both go' hand to hand' together.

    All scholars have acertain bias and I did not say that Albertz or the Society of Biblical Literature supports WT chronology but what Albertz has written for he is a specialist on the subject of the Exile, bases his discussion on the Exile proper from the Fall not from the first golah.

    I leave it others to imagine about my motives, methodology or quality of argument for I simply care nought but what I do know that I keep you on your toes.

    Also I checked Martin Anstey's Romance of Bible Chronology and his outline of Hoshea's reign and the Interregnum agres with that of WT scholars.

    scholar JW

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    scholar:

    the simple fact of the matter is that the concept of Exile is problematic for your hypothesis on this key portion of biblical history.

    It's really not. As is clearly shown in the timeline I've already provided, I don't have any problems with the period whatsever.

    Jeremiah 27 and 29 both were directly addressed to the exiled people of the first deportation and as subsequent events as described by Jeremiah later included a much larger group of detainees or exiles who were all part of the EXILE. There was then a composite group residing in Babylon from shortly after the Fall of Jerusalem in 607 BCE right through until the Return to Judah in 537 BCE. Therefore this proves that the seventy years was indeed a period of Exile.

    If you really believe that, you're an idiot. It simply isn't what the Bible says. Claiming that the 70 years at Jeremiah 29:10 refers to people not yet in Babylon makes no sense, and is even more stupid in view of the fact that there were two later deportations to Babylon (587 and 582BCE), both of which the Bible says were significantly smaller than the one in 597BCE (Jeremiah 52:28-30). The date you assert for the Jews' return is also wrong; based on the Bible, the correct year is 538BCE.

    Insults do not trouble me at all but merely reflect your character and desperation in trying to enforce your interpretations onto gullible minds. LOL

    If you say stupid things, I will say that they are stupid. If you don't want to be 'insulted', stop saying stupid things. I have provided detailed information for readers to discern that you are indeed wrong.

    The very fact of Judah' serving' nebuchadnezzer is the very proof that in accord with both Jeremiah ch 27 and ch 29 of the Exile in Babylon for both go' hand to hand' together.

    Your claim bears no resemblance at all to the context of nations serving Babylon as explitly provided in Jeremiah 25:8-11 and Jermiah 27:6-11.

    All scholars have acertain bias and I did not say that Albertz or the Society of Biblical Literature supports WT chronology but what Albertz has written for he is a specialist on the subject of the Exile, bases his discussion on the Exile proper from the Fall not from the first golah.

    Your habit of quoting any source that disagrees with the correct chronology even though it contradicts your own is an extremely poor technique. I have already clearly shown how the Bible indicates that nations serving Babylon does not mean exile, so Albertz is wrong. But even if he were right, you would still be wrong.

    I leave it others to imagine about my motives, methodology or quality of argument for I simply care nought but what I do know that I keep you on your toes.

    No one needs to imagine those things. Your motive is to cling to JW doctrines, your methodology is to report whatever seems consistent with what the Watch Tower Society says, and your quality of argument is very very poor. You don't 'keep me on my toes'. Your trite irrational posts are a mild annoyance, but they do help me demonstrate to people just how ridiculous your position is.

    Also I checked Martin Anstey's Romance of Bible Chronology and his outline of Hoshea's reign and the Interregnum agres with that of WT scholars.

    It's not surprising that the 'Reverend' Martin Anstey supported an old Protestant chronology (you clearly don't understand the historical development of your own religion), and 1913 is hardly modern scholarship. Anstey is wrong, but because he wasn't infected by the Watch Tower Society's spurious '20-year gap' during the Neo-Babylonian period, he wasn't as wrong as you. Because he doesn't properly account for the four years of rivalry between Jotham and Ahaz (hence Jotham's 20th year), Anstey instead makes silly claims about what the "Holy Ghost" 'chose' to record. Anstey also makes several other (incorrect) 'corrections' to the scriptures that are not consistent with Watch Tower Society chronology. I have resolved all the inconsistencies that Anstey failed to deal with.

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