My life time thoughts about Babylon the Great has fallen

by Gorbatchov 12 Replies latest jw friends

  • Gorbatchov


    Since I was a very young boy (+/- 10 years old) I had thoughts when Revelation 18:2 was studiyed at our kingdom hall.

    Babylon the Great was for me New York. The center of the world, where all cultures are comming together.

    Next step for me, was that New York was the center of the universe for our Jehovah's Witness religion.

    So I was connecting Babylon the Great with our own religion.

    Now with all the topics about the connexion between the Watchtower corporations with investment billions, political influance, history cleaning and rebranding their business I could imagine when the Society is going down, many corporations and politicians will say "Shame, shame, Babylon the Great has fallen..."


  • eyeuse2badub

    Hey your guess is as good as the guess that the WTBTS has put on BTG. The org has had at least 3 different definitions of who BTG is.


  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run


    In the New York area, Brooklyn is considered a different city than Manhattan. It was a separate city until recently. We always called Bethel, Brooklyn. New Yorkers tend to call Manhattan, New York. It is amusing. I don't know what most Americans think about NYC and Brooklyn. Bethelites called it "Brooklyn."

    Babylon the Great for me was mostly the Vatican. The Society was very against Roman Catholics when I was growing up. There would be rage in people's voices when discussing the Roman Catholic Church. I always pictured a big fat beast from the book illustration. Next, I visualized the pope and some generic Protestant leaders. I did not know what Martin Luther looked like. My default was to think of the local Roman Catholic priest and a classmate's father who was a Protestant minister.

    After I left, I socialized with Protestant ministers. Sometimes I would tease the ministers by quoting from a Witness book about how evil they were. We laughed so hard. It is funny and sad.

    Wow. Mayor Bloomberg would be so impressed. Heck, if Moslems are going to fly planes into your city's buildings and set off bombs, why not catch the anger of Jehovah's Witnesses, too. I will walk in Babylon the Great this weekend. Cool. I bet our new mayor would be pleased.

  • scotoma

    There are at least 4 ways to view endtime prophecy:

    1. The atheist view that it is just a style of presentation of universal conflict between good and evil but has no connection with the real world.

    2. The preterists view that it all has been fullfilled.

    3. The know-it-all. It hasn't happened yet but we already know the full explanation of how it will unfold. (Includes JW's, Adventists, Born-Agains)

    4. Open ended approach: It hasn't happened yet but we will know what it means when it happens.

    The idea that Babylon the Great is a religious entity is a protestant idea. Most of the protestant reformers liked to say that the Catholic Church is Babylon the Great. JW's descend from that tradition only they extend that explanation to cover all religions except theirs.

    This is a serious flaw in JW teaching. There is no basis for believing Babylon the Great is a religious entity.

    The language of Revelation 18 makes no reference to religious features. The descriptors primarily refer to wealth and dominance of a political nature.

    The language of Revelation also makes it impossible to apply Babylon the Great to the Watchtower organization. In what way could you say the scripture at Rev. 18:23 applies to JW's "Your traveling merchants were the top-ranking men of the earth".

    If there is any fullfillment of the prophecies about Babylon the Great then the USA is the best candidate.

    "The traveling merchants of the earth became rich due to the power of her shameless luxury" _ Rev. 18:3b

    "The traveling merchants of the earth are weeping and mourning becasue there is no one to buy their full stock anymore" _ Rev 18:11

    "Too bad, too bad the great city, in which all those having boats at sea became rich by reason of her costliness, because in one hour she has been devastated._ Rev. 18:19

    USA is still the economic and military hegemon that has a kingdom over the whole earth.

    The idea that Babylon the Great is a religious entity or a collective religious entity can't be supported in any way by the Bible.

  • Crazyguy

    Isn't there a scripture in revelations that seems to indicate that Babylon the great is also the city that killed Jesus, so that would make it Jerusalem?

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    I always thought there was a religous link. Wow. I just read Elaine Pagels book, too. It seems that John of Patmos was describing Rome. He was a Jewish Christian and may have witnessed Rome's destruction of Jerusalem. Prof. Pagels made the point that John was utterly wrong in his prophecy. When Revelation became part of the canon, Rome was now the sponsor of Christians. Bishops who once were reguarly executed by Rome were now paid with Roman funds. Constantine made them princes with large homes and many servants.

    She wrote that the inclusion of Revelation was controversial. Most Christian Fathers thought the book an embarassment. They wanted it banned. Egypt was the focal point for Christianity. The urban centers were controlled by Christians who believed in orthodoxy and central control. Monasteries consisting of thousands thrived in the rural areas. These monks thought that the urban bishops were usurpers. The urban crowd wanted to impose their will on the monks who were free thinkers. Athanasius recast Revelation as a struggle between his powers as urban bishop and the evil monks. Constantine favored the urban view. The Great Beast became the monks. Handy dany little book.

  • TD

    In the outer provinces, Rome was personified as the goddess Dea Roma. The first temple was built about a generation before Jesus of the Bible.

    Dea Roma is depicted on the tail side of the Vespasian coin as a giant figure atop the seven hills of Rome.

    The Jews hated Rome, because they had been subjugated by her just as with Babylon. They absolutely despised Dea Roma. If you use your imagination to envison how a female deity would have been derided and insulted by the Jews, Babylon the Great as well as the descriptions in Revelation actually fit pretty well.

    "Mother of prostitutes and abominations" (17:5)

    "The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sat" (17:9) -Look at the coin again.

    "And the woman who you saw means the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth" (17:18) -What city would that have been?

  • Acluetofindtheuser

    I had some similar thoughts along those lines. Bethel headquarters is/was in Brooklyn, the United Nations headquarters is in Manhattan and the city of Babylon is about 20 miles west, on Long Island.

    Maybe there's more to the WT mass Exodus out of Brooklyn.

    Wikipedia article on the history of Babylon, NY:

    "The region was once called Huntington South. Nathaniel Conklin moved his family to the area, eventually calling it "New Babylon", naming it after the ancient town of Babylon around 1803. The town was officially formed in 1872 by a partition of the Town of Hunington."

    By the way, former WWE diva Ashley Massaro was born there.

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    Growing up in the NY area, I often heard Babylon on the news. People talked about visting friends near Babylon. I never associated Babylon, LI with Babylon the Great. I would rather live in Huntingdon than Babylon. I laugh so hard about Joseph Smith meeting up with an angel in Westchester County. It has no Holy Land sparkle. Babylon, LI has no evil city sparkle.

  • eyeuse2badub

    The Governing Body, Babylon The Great or TGB -- BTG. Looks like the same 3 letters. Weird huh?


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