by fulltimestudent 40 Replies latest social current
Band, take a minute away from carving out your niche as the Christian who hates all other Christians and reread your post. It's a mess.
Tammy never denied that lots of people claim to have Jesus on their side, she said stating as much does not mean Jesus would agree. You said the same sort of thing when you said Jesus would support discussion. If you're going to attack her, attack her on something she actually wrote and apply some consistency to yourself.
All of this is irrelevant to anything important in our lives, but it does demonstrate how Christians can tie themselves in knots, over such stupid statements as the Pentecostal Christian Church spokesman made in the Cook Islands, and therefore how irrelevant that Jesus is in the world of today.
I'm really unsure how you came to your conclusion. I didn't see anyone on here tying themselves in knots over one pentecostal spokesman. I mean, it is your thread, lol.
Laika... thank you! I could not have said anything better than you just did.
Peace and love to you and yours, as Christ gives these things,
tammy
From Jesus Christ, my Lord.
I believe the statement by the Pentecostal minister shows how a few so-called Christians believe they can impose their religious views on citizens in a diverse society. The American Taliban is plotting as I write this to subvert our basic freedoms. I asked about the Cook Islands b/c I thought they were Hawaiian and American or British in background. Based on its bloodshed and social division for centuries of religous wars, Britain has freedom of religion as an important moral value. In contrast to the past, when I watch Parliament, I do not believe any modern British politician would advocate less than freedom of religion. I know the Church of England still receives a few special benefits but I do not know more.
Most Christians feel guilt about the awful things done in Jesus' name. I wonder if something such as the Truth and Reconciliation process in South Africa would work. Many black Americans feel they deserve reparations for slavery. I believe they do. I also wonder if when some outrageous group claims Christian exclusivity if active Christians should not mourn such actions by public displays. One idea would be to show up at church and simply sit to announce that not all actions claimed to be Christian are.
Christianity should be strong and proud. We don't need exclusivity by dominance. As humans we need not bring all to Christ. I would hope that in the end, Christ Himself will bring all to Him. Also, I doubt that my personal vision of Jesus will be the one I meet. The contrast between Jesus and the false ones who claim to be Christian is so great. It is very sad. Think about even a very limited midget JW Christ. Is He not capable of spreading His Word? We are trapped in human bodies. He is not. Jesus implored us to think of the lilies of the field. There is no need to set fire to Hindu villages. Christ must have means beyond our conceptions.
5go- Do you mean the christians who acknowledge the Bible is flawed and accept modern science on the origin of the universe and life on this planet.
When I say fundies I mean those people of all walks of life (mainly politcal parties) and religions that look down on others who do not meet their level of moral pruirty, or have their unique beliefs and require the extermination in one form or another of all those that won't conform to those morals and beliefs. Either by human means through a holocaust, or divine means through an apocalypse. Both are the same thing, ways to get rid of those impure ones that won't get with the program.
So let's look at this thread,
But first can we review what I posted, which was a story from a small, insignificant country about a church leader who wanted to ban a religious celebration by non-christians. (put another way, he wanted to restrict the religious freedoms of another minority group).
Why did I post it?
Primarily, because I think Christians (as a collective) do this too often, but also because of recent discussion here, that non-theists were having too much too say, and should leave the faithful Jesus worshippers alone. I wondered what (if anything) the true believers may have to say, when one of their own, advocated discrimination toward what is likely a small group of Hindu's in their island nation. (And, I acknowledge the fact that Hindu's in India do the same thing.)
My personal comments (i.e. not in the actual news item) in my lead posty,were:
A Bishop of the Apostolic church (grandiose title, isn't it?) in the Cook Islands, wants to ban local Indians who are Hindu's from celebrating their Diwali festival.
then said, (descriptively) -setting out the position I wanted to take.
He claims its blasphemy against the Christian god, and that because the Cooks Islands is a Christian country, no other form of worship should be permitted.
That was what this Christian said, wasnt it? and then (more controversially, apparently)
Gotta love your average Christian, don't you? If they are banned or persecuted, they scream their heads off, but as soon as they control things they want to ban any alternative worship.
Some dispute (I think, that's what they mean), that there is no such thing as an "average Christian," which I suppose means there is no such thing as an "average Australian" or an average anyone else, but that kind of dodges the issue, doesn't it?
The real issue that was stated is - " Do Christians have a tendency to protest loudly, when they are banned or persecuted?"
We belonged previously to a religion that (particularly in the 1920's and 1930's) got protest down to an art form. But the comments of those who think Christians should have special rights and should be protected from criticism, on this site make their own claim to a privileged position very clear.
But, "when they get to be in control, do they seek to restrict other people's religious rights?"
That can be clearly demonstrated historically. Whether any of the protesting Christians here would do that on their own site is unknown to me, but it was certainly open to any Christian to say that they would not do that, and that the Cook Island Bishop was in the wrong ( Seraphim23, suggested that it was not a good look, then quoted some texts that were dificult to apply)
Let me ask you guys, should the church (all of them including the JWs) have reported case of Child abuse, even though it made the church look bad?
I believe all of you would agree that any such case should have been reported.
If so, why not say so, in this case, instead of friggin around arguing about whether there is any such thing as a "christian country," or that the label "Christian" does not mean they are (real?) Christians, or anything else that avoided having to admit that a "Christian" said something wrong.
I got to thinking that the common reaction of those who seemed inclined to be unsettled by criticism of Christianity, was not much different in principle to those church leaders who failed to report child abuse. Those leaders, generally seemed to have wanted to protect the good name of their church, which is what it looked liked you guys were trying to do.
The church is a human institution, not a divinely created one.
I am confused about your post. Is this a true story about the Cook Islands' Christian leader wanting to ban Hindu worship?
In America, we are losing rights because of the obstruction of the Tea Party. A recent book I read argued that this form of suppression of civil rights and civl liberties is very American. According to the author, modern day Christians in Europe tend to not be so dogmatic and judging. I am sorry I can't recall more details but it was recreational and quick reading. Perhaps the argument was so scary that I tried to forget the details.
Jehovah's Witnesses had a right to their view in the 1920s and 1930s. The First Amendment was clear. My family members were involved in many of those cases. The Supreme Court arrived. As my poli sci and law profs would point out, though, where was it earlier?
We don't need a remote or obscure country. A war is being waged now. Fundamentalist Christians want to impose their views on all Americans. It is reported daily. I can't recall such an oppressive atmosphere since the 1950s. Our social contract as Americans is breaking. There is an entire industry devoted to writing about and fighting these efforts. Abortion restrictions were allowed this week. The Voting Rights Act has been limited. Here, at JWN, there was an actual call for atheists to be barred from posting on believers' threads. All this without any election or consensus.
It is chilling and ugly.
I thought it was obvious that the guy is wrong, fulltimestudent. I'm not reluctant to say it or avoiding saying it - it's obvious. If that's the response you were trying to elicit, then why paint all Christians with the same brush? There are bad apples in every bushel basket and there's no justifying them
For my part, I absolutely would've reported any child abuse I knew of in any church. I don't like religion either, or most anything done in the name of religion. But really...
I don't know what you're going on about.
I really do not post to elicit comment, and I really did not expect more than one or two comments on that thread. And in format and wording the post was not very different to other posts i've made.
you posted:
There are some absolutely horrible people who like to call attention to themselves with the title 'Christian'.
So I'm happy you see the need to condemn stupid statements. I'll look forward to reading some of your criticisms.
Its not just the JWs, at fault you know, but the whole concept of Christianity.
When some here spoke up and argued with his position, how is that not calling his position wrong?
It is simply true that not everyone who calls themselves a christian IS a christian, although a person should be careful if they are going to state... so and so is not actually a christian. It is much easier to see if someone is obeying Christ, by their words and deeds, when tested against Christ and against love. Sometimes asking a question and pointing out what Christ taught... as opposed to what the 'christian' is saying and doing and teaching... will highlight that, for an obeservor and for the person who may thinks he/she is doing right by Christ.
Peace,
tammy
Well, I look around myself here in my corner of the world and see the full spectrum of people acting out their concept of Christianity. Some of them, imo, are completely wacko. Some of them, imo, are right on track. So I think it's their concept of 'the concept of Christianity' that colors their reactions and actions.
Take the child abuse issue - certainly, reporting it as criminal to the authorities seems like THE clear-cut reaction for any thinking, feeling person. It dumbfounds me that a religion could make someone not think and feel normal human emotions; make them not react in the right way, no matter what anyone says. But that's what we have in the wt and many other religions that have been 'outed' in the news because someone did the right thing. As we've seen, many members of those religions don't have those 'light-bulb moments' when they realize what their religion teaches is wrong. They go along as if it doesn't matter, especially if it doesn't affect them directly. People are fallible, blah,blah blah... it's religions' lamest excuse.
I've always thought the Bible message was simple - do the right thing, have a good conscience. But so many religions don't teach that - they teach secrecy to whitewash their church; they teach hate and intolerance to segregate themselves from the very world they think they're sent to 'save'. It's bass-ackwards! They do NOT represent the Christ I think I know.
Since leaving the wt, one of my major 'ah-ha' moments was the realization that for the most part religion is religion is religion. It doesn't train good consciences or teach good works - it works for itself and trains it's adherants to defend it, right or wrong. There are a few exceptions, but those are not exceptions to the religion, but exceptions in the men and women who lead and teach. There are definitely some 'good apples' - the dipshit in your OP is not one of them. He's just another one who's giving the Jesus I think I know a black eye.
I have no room for religion in my life. But I still have faith in God and Christ - I still believe, but without religion's interference. I truly believe that religion has evolved to what it is now, from very humble beginnings that very quickly went way off track. God's not intervening, letting us play it out to the finish, letting us show our true colors - and I don't think the excuse, "but I was only following orders", will cut it. Religion is so screwed-up... and getting even screwier. :/
I wasn't defending religion at all, you see, because I agree with you. BUT(you knew that 'but' was coming, lol) there are some people who, if 'scratched', will not have hate and intolerance bleeding out of them. But then, you'll never see them in the news. ;)
Peace! ~Watkins
