Scratch a Christian and see the Intolerance under the Skin

by fulltimestudent 40 Replies latest social current

  • adamah

    BOTR said-

    It is unfortunate that Paul was not more precise in his writing. Madeleine L'Engle quipped if Paul knew he was writing holy scripture rather than immediate letters to specific people, he certainly would have been more careful with language.

    BOTR, I see you like to play your own permutation of the "no true Scotsman" fallacy, in addition to the usual suspects (USR, Seraphim, TEC)?

    Instead of acknowledging the many flaws and antics that uninspired men have left as fingerprints all over the pages of the Bible, you'd think that an omniscient, omnipotent God would be able to direct his Holy Word to be impeccable (dare I say, immaculate?), even head-and-shoulders above the other writings of mere mortal men, being the most-airtight coherent book EVER written? Heck, even the "greatest story ever told"?

    Instead, the Bible contains far more continuity errors, illogical flip-flops, boring (and wildly inconsistent) geneology, etc that make Tolkien's LOTR seem like it's written by the mind of God (although CS Lewis may have been trying to make the Bible seem fascinating and well-writen in comparison, with his Chronicles of Narnia).

    BTW, I'm noting the exquisite irony of those who claim to be true Xians violating the very spirit of Jesus' words by doing his work for him, determining who a "true believer" is and not, and separating the sheeps from the goats to help him out.... Kinda catch-22, since you share in the guilt by association if you don't play Jesus' role, but then look bad if you refuse to condemn what is clearly onerous. Must be very confusing trying to follow a contradictory book of rules!

  • Laika

    I am in full agreement with Tammy and unstoppable here. Just because you claim they are the average christian, it doesn't mean they actually are.

  • LisaRose

    So, this was about one particular person, that you believe is a hypocrite, yet the title suggests all Christians are hypocrites. Are you just being provocative, or do you really think all Christians are hypocrites?

  • JeffT

    A Bishop of the Apostolic church (grandiose title, isn't it?) in the Cook Islands,

    Damn, you're on to us! We all got together and elected this guy supreme leader of all Christians everywhere. You weren't supposed to figure it out. A guess we'll have to go with the runner up, I think he's the Grand Vizier of Transnistria.

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    I believe most Christian are decent people. Of course, most good Germans were Christian. Let us be honest. This is a common stereotype about Christians. I wonder if it is international. Bob Dylan wrote "With God on Our Side." Throughout European history and wars, each side claimed God was on their side. I wonder if it is not social commentary. It may speak well of how widespread Jesus' core social justice teachings are. Love your enemy. Take care of the sick. Love one another.

    As monks feed the poor, Christian knights impale each other on swords. Joan of Art is proclaimed a saint but not by the British church. The contrast between Jesus' radical and simple commands and the hypocrisy of the church and secular governments is heightened.

    It may be the same in Islam. I've never lived in another country. The Crusades are infamous! Nice, gentleman knights have problem obtaining enough financing to make it to Jerusalem so they decide to rape, plunder, and destroy Constantinople, a Christian city. The crusades are so perverse that I can't begin to keep them straight. It seems every Crusade started with the murder,rape, and plunder of good Christians.

    What is the answer? I did not know this but before WWII Germany was the center of Christian culture. Within medicine, law, and theology alone, Americans flocked to Germany to study. It fine arts were legendary. My confirmation teacher studied in Nuremberg at a seminary. It exposed you to heavy intellectual ideas. He warned us never to let anyone have your passport when abroad. One night he decided to check out what the Nazis were about. It was a key night with a special name. He came from a prominent Boston family and travelled with them since he was young. During the rally, he realized that evil was present. He went straight to the airport and home. His belongings were left in the rush to leave. There was no way he could remain calm and sophisticated. He freaked out. Not phone calls home. Just went home. It shocked his generation that the German church could descend so quickly.

    I don't think Christians are more intolerant than any other religion. It is our normative religion and it shoud be held to high standards.

  • fulltimestudent

    Oh dear! The particular church in the news for the above claim (that Indian Hindu's should not be allowed to celebrate the festival of Diwali in the "Christian" country of the Cook Islands) appears to be Pentecostal.

    So - Are Pentecostal Christians, really Christian? But before I go there, I'd like to say I agree with Tammy when she says:

    (the religion of christianity has plenty of its own false idols to worry about, before it starts pointing to others who don't even claim to worship God, the Father of Christ)



    I suggest they should go a step further, and that Christians should be taking out full page adverts. in all the newspapers of the world, every day of the week, asking non-Christians to forgive "Christians" for all the terrible things that "Christians"have done in the name of Jesus.

    It's easy to find crimes against humanity, I think I posted one, a few weeks ago:

    It was about the murder of Hypatia, a woman who was a non-Christian philosopher, respected in her city, and yet torn to pieces by a howling mob of Christian monks.

    You can read of this crime at:

    There are many such awful crimes in history, and seldom are the perpetrators, 'ex-communicated' or disfellowshipped, or whatever other word you may want to use to describe the process of officially denying these people the right to call themselves 'Christian.'

    In fact, some seem to argue (on this site) that it's not scriptural to do that, in spite of the fact that its been done for centuries.


    Now let's examine this statement:

    "just because the sign on the door says christian does not mean christians are inside. just like if there were lets say a group of athiest who were racist, that does not speak for all atheist. same with those who claim to be christ followers."

    There are literally hundreds of different brands of Christians, each group marketing their own version of "truth." Are you guys arguing that some should not be called "Christian?"

    The gentleman who made the statement appears to be a spokesman for the Pentie church in the Cook Islands. You guys appear to disagree with his statement, I assume he would disagree with your stated views, and probably call you p*ss-weak Christians, or something similar.

    Which one of you is right? Isn't there a text (divinely inspired, no doubt) that says something about a house divided against itself ?????? (If you're not too sure, maybe check Mark 3:25) and may I point out that individuals who have concluded that there is no divine personage somewhere in the universe, speak as individuals, (which is the way that some of your arguments seem to want to be the way that Christians should be seen). Therefore individual anti-theists do not do group-speak, and seldom ask for laws to be made about someone else's beliefs.



    I am pretty certain that Christ said His kingdom was from another place.

    So how could there be a 'christian country' other than the one He is coming to establish?

    Now that text of course, was often cited among JWs, as being the basic reason for not joining national armies, or voting, or such like things, so I recall it well. You can be quite confident that the text exists and can find it in your own Bible at John 18:36.

    I do not have any reason to argue against this statement, but I'd like to point out that Orthodox Christians, who number some 200 to 300 hundred million "christians," once thought of the Byzantium empire as "THE" Christian nation. But since Allah eventually proved stronger than Yahweh, I guess they no longer do that.

    But note that: this church whose roots can be demonstrated to go right back to the early Christian church, did not agree with your statement about a 'christian country.'


    All of this is irrelevant to anything important in our lives, but it does demonstrate how Christians can tie themselves in knots, over such stupid statements as the Pentecostal Christian Church spokesman made in the Cook Islands, and therefore how irrelevant that Jesus is in the world of today.

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    Pentcostalism scared me. Speaking in tongues - whoa, demons. Yet I believe it is an important branch of Christianity. They believe in the same core of beliefs that most Christians do. The Witnesses and Mormons do not. Wikipedia has a decent article on New Religious Movements which is the correct academic description of groups such as the Witnesses and Mormons.

    I grew up with the son of the local Pentecostal minister. They don't like education much. It would be more accurate to say they send their children to specail colleges that are Pentecostal to shelter them from evil people like me and Jews. They have powerful ministries. More and more of South and Central America is becoming Pentecostal. They have charities.

    They are Christian. I believe they are Trinitarians but I am not certain. For some reason, I keep reading the wikipedia articles. When I attended services, I saw group hysteria. The minister deliberate kept prodding people to lose control. My goody goody girl friends were screeching their heads off how bad they were. They were rolling on the floor and pulling out big chunks of hair. I just prayed and prayed not to go crazy, too. The whole church went bonkers. I stayed calm and the minister stayed calm. After a certain time period, the minister brought them back. They felt they had a transformative religous experience. They later told me Christ spoke to them from the windows. Well, I was present. They were not happy while they were rolling around. I noticed the windows and did not hear Jesus or anyone talking from them. I had no respect for the minister. Maybe he was a spirit guide.

  • fulltimestudent

    I have met (via my GAYXJW friend) a former 'church-starter/missionary' in the Pentecostal church in Australia. I have a great deal of respect for him (maybe not so much for the church), he did something I'm not sure I could do. He was being kicked out of the church for being 'gay,' and the process included a public confession in front of a congregation of more than 1000.

    After settling his life down, he began a campaign to change the church viewpoint on homosexuality. I only see him very occasionally, but he claims to making progress in his goal and maintains that in 30 years time, gay people will be accepted in all churches.

    Of course, he's unlikely to have ever dealt with our former, "loving brothers and sisters," who may be tougher (grin) nuts to crack. Nonetheless, I no longer see this particular church as being so negatively 'fixed' on particular dogma's.

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    I think that Pentecostal churches may have different tones depending on local circumstances. Watching TV I see some very impressive things. Next, they make the WT look wonderful.

    May I ask where are the Cook Islands? Are they former British colonies? It sounds like a news bite. Perhaps said to enrage such as the Westboro Baptist Church.

  • fulltimestudent

    Oh! yes absolutely!

    The Cook Islands are located close to New Zealand, and yes! the Brits made it a protectorate in the late 19th C. But the local (polynesian) people settled the islands some 1500 years ago. Oh! and the Spanish were there about 400+ years ago>

    Politically, these days, the islands have a sort of association with New Zealand, and the islanders have New Zealand citizenship. In fact, more Cook Islanders live in NZ, than in the islands. And no! I don't think they were trying to wind anyone else up, it's just the way the people think. (The ABC is an Australian government owned broadcasting system and usually (in their news) plays a straight bat).

    American Christians (as illustrated in this thread) have the experience of living in a pluralistic society - this causes modification of some extremist Christian ideas. In many places in the world, the local Christians like to believe they should represent the extremist view, rather than the modified view with currency in contemporary western societies. You could illustrate this process by reference to many places in Africa also.

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