John 7:53-8:11 - taken out of the new bible

by cognac 26 Replies latest jw friends

  • adamah
    adamah

    Of course, one very good reason to ditch Jesus' account of 'pericope of the adultress' from the Bible is that it directly undermines the authority of JWs to disfellowship and shun for sins such as adultery, since Jesus' refusal to condemn her to death by stoning is as close as Jesus came to denouncing the later 'man-made' Pharaisacal practice of shunning (which was adopted as a suitable replacement for stoning, AFTER secular authorities prohibited the Jews from engaging in capital punishment against their own people, esp for such religiously-defined 'sins' as adultery).

    I wrote an article on it on my blog, "Would Jesus Shun?"

    http://awgue.weebly.com/would-jesus-shun.html

    Adam

  • cognac
    cognac

    Thanks Adam. I'm surprised this doesn't phase JWs...

  • Phizzy
    Phizzy

    JW's never seem rattled by anything you show them,. they simply think it away with some non-logic.

    just a couple of points.

    First off in a discussion about something like this I would not use the argument from Revelation about taking away or adding to it, that simply applies to Revelation, as any JW should know, but probably does not, the 3 Letters of John were written after Revelation.

    If you want a scripture to use, then maybe Proverbs 30 v5&6, but that is only about not adding words, if they wish to be pedantic.

    As to the inclusion of the Pericope de Adultera in 4th Century versions, the point is that this particualr section had been set aside by the Church Fathers as a "reading" in Church, as in, "today's Lesson is...". They even marked where it should start , Arche, and where it should end, Telos.

    They are pre-exisitng readings older than any complete manuscript we have, appproved for use before the Codex Sinaiticus was written ! These guys were much closer to the 1st Century, and there would have been cries of "Heresy" had they included something that was doubtfull, like the later, post 1st Century writings you refer to.

  • adamah
    adamah

    Cognac said-

    Thanks Adam. I'm surprised this doesn't phase JWs...

    Well apparently it DID: the WTBTS dropped the account from the RNWT, when it's been included for what, 50 yrs in the NWT, using a fallacious excuse that it wasn't there in the oldest-available manuscripts?

    Yet no one in Xianity blinks an eyelash at including 2nd Peter, the last writing to be added to the canon and a well-known fraud of dubious origins within the world of NT scholars, since it serves a useful theological purpose.

    I've written on the topic of 2nd Peter on my blog, since the fake writings support their preaching work in two ways: the concept of Noah preaching a message of salvation (and NOT a message of condemnation, as the book of Genesis actually indicates), and Lot being declared as a "righteous" man (against the message delivered in the Genesis account, which made him out as an incestuous and drunken heel who offered up his daughters for rape, who was saved, only on account of his righteous uncle Abraham).

    http://awgue.weebly.com/genesis-vs-2nd-peter-noah-didnt-preach-bupkis.html

    http://awgue.weebly.com/article-pt-1-revisiting-sodom-was-lot-supposed-to-be-viewed-as-a-righteous-man.html

    What you see is clear-cut evidence of theologically-driven step-wise editing of the Bible, no more, no less, both in ancient times and continuing into the modern day, as the need to clean up doctrinal "loose ends" arises.

    Adam

  • Bobcat
    Bobcat

    The BECNT-John commentary (Andreas J. Kostenberger, p.247; BECNT stands for Baker Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament) has an excursus on the passage (7:53-8:11) which they refer to as the pericope adulterae or the story of the adulterous woman.

    The commentary excursus has two parts: An internal evidence part and an external one. Without typing all the details they consider, the internal evidence is judged thusly, "This represents overwhelming evidence that the section is non-Johannine." The commentary analyzed the uniqueness of the wording in comparison with the rest of John, as well as the way phrases or clauses were constructed. It also mentions "a penchant for kata-prefixes" in 7:53-8:11 which is unlike the rest of John.

    On the "external evidence" side of things, it says "the entire twelve verses of the pericope adulterae are completely absent from all of the oldest manuscripts of the Gospel of John, the pericope first appearing [in the gospel of John] in the fifth-century Codex Gospel of John Bezae (D). Even after this, the spread into the MS tradition is very slow. Thus, scholarship has, almost universally, regarded the pericope as a later insertion for . . . reasons [that] are massive, convincing, and obvious."

    A footnote mentions that "one of the few scholars favoring originality (on the grounds of Byzantine priority) is M. Robinson (1998: 1-17)."

    The commentary then lists six reasons for excluding it:

    1. Its utter absence from all pre-fifth-century A.D. MSS
    2. Its appearance in no fewer than five different places in the MS tradition (after John 7:36, 44, or 52; at the end of John's Gospel; or after Luke 21:38), bearing all the marks of a "bouncing around . . . floating logion." All this suggesting an "unstable MS tradition."
    3. Non-Johannine literary features.
    4. The interruption of the narrative flow from 7:52 to 8:12, breaking up the literary unit 7:1 - 8:59; on a historical level, the setting of 7:53 - 8:1 suggests most plausibly Jesus' pattern during the week before his passion (cf. Mark 11:11, 19; 13:3; and esp. Luke 21:37).
    5. The lack of citation in early patristic writings up to the fourth century (the earliest Greek patristic reference of a variation of this narrative occurring in a commentary by Didymus the Blind [d. 398].
    6. The suggested scenario that the pericope passed from its original place in the Gospel according to the Hebrews to John's Gospel (Eusebius, Hist. eccl. 3.39.17, citing Papias).

    The commentary acknowledges that the story might be included among "other possibly authentic sayings of Jesus that may be found in NT apocryphal literature. Thus, though it may be possible to derive a certain degree of edification from the study of this pericope, proper conservatism and caution suggest that the passage be omitted from preaching in the churches (not to mention inclusion in the main body of translations, even within square brackets."

    The commentary ends the excursus saying, "The present commentary therefore will follow the precedent of Origen (d. 253), who moved directly from 7:52 to 8:12, and refrain from further comment on 7:53 - 8:11.

    A footnote states that, "A survey of major commentaries shows that about half provide a regular commentary (Carson, Laney, Lindars, Whitacre, Calvin, Westcott), while the other half refrain from comment (Michaels, Talbert, Stibbe, Brodie, D. M. Smith), in some cases choosing not to address the issue at all (e.g. Schlatter [1948: 205], who in his scholarly commentary moves directly from 7:52 to 8:12 without comment, though his popular commentary [1962: 139 - 41] does treat the pericope adulterae in deference to 'ecclesiatical tradition' "

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    Perhaps this passage serves as an embarrassment to elders who, like the Pharisees, are ready to spiritually slay the adulteress.

  • Phizzy
    Phizzy

    Thanks Bobcat. My comments above are not arguing with scholars, it is more than possible they are right, this is an addition to the original Gospel of John.

    The point is though, that arguing as they do, and the WT follows, that it is not in the earliest MS proves nothing, even if we had an earlier one still than those we have, we know that the Gospel was redacted and edited, a good number believe the prologue and the Conclusion are not original, for example.

    We would need an Autograph MS from the time of writing, around 100 to 110 CE, to see what was in there, we have no such MS.

    The time of writing of the original G of J is significant too, long after the events it records, probably mainly based on oral tradition, and written at a time when the Jesus cult had evolved and changed considerably.

    We cannot say what is genuine and what is added in the Gospel with any degree of certainty, scholars will argue about the whole of it for many more years to come, all that is certsain is that the earliest MS are copies of many copies, they themselves have been redacted and edited, and most are incomplete.

    Why didn't God look after His word a bit better ?

  • braincleaned
    braincleaned

    marked

  • Bobcat
    Bobcat

    Hey Phizzy:

    I wasn't trying to be argumentative at all. You make valid points all around. I just wanted to add the current academic view.

    Take Care

  • Legacy
    Legacy

    Hi,

    Why wouldn't they, that could be an exit scripture to share with them when one get's DF'd. Just like they can go to the scriptures to DF you, you can leave them with that one...copy & paste it from the old NWT..make copies & leave it with them...Trust me, it will leave a lasting impression. One late night, in one of their quiet moments, they'll remember the scripture that was left with them...trust me, it will bother their conscience, even though they would never let on...A great exiting scripture....Doesn't God think of every thing ? At least it was in the bible in the first place...he wanted it to be seen & it was. It's too late to do damage control. That scripture shows about being judgemental...that's the theme...nobody could step to Jesus...not nobody not no how....The message is...who are we to judge anybody, doesn't the bible say, do not judge or else you'll be judged as well, guess that got lost in translation..Only JW's were appointed to judge...isn't that right ? NOT..

    Legacy

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit