by smiddy 14 Replies latest watchtower bible
Doesnt the bible clearly show he has always been on the earth causing trouble and havoc ? Gen.Cap.3. onwards.
Then especially with the account in the book of Job.
Not forgetting his tempting Jesus in the wilderness.
Being reinforced in 2Cor.4:4 "...the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of unbeleivers..."
All of which occurs on earth with humans , so whats the big deal about Rev.12:12,13 ?
smiddy
Why send him here anyway, didn't we have enough problems? What a terrible thing to send the Devil to earth when he had the whole universe to choose from. It comes from this ancient idea that God has to keep testing humans over and over again. It's an explanation for life's problems. There are better explanations.
smiddy:
Isn`t the scripture at Rev.12: 12,13 Pointless ?
As with the rest of Revelation, it's just cryptic idiocy. Under even the most basic scrutiny, the concept is stupid.
Aside from the fairly significant fact that Satan doesn't exist (somewhat limiting his impact), not only has 'Satan'—as you've already indicated—supposedly always had access to Earth anyway, but he's also purportedly invisible and supposedly able to influence people and do other things from heaven. So it would make absolutely no measurable difference even if he were 'on Earth'.
Maybe he should join forces with Doctor Evil and Ming the Merciless, and start an evil guild of fictitious villains.
The Bible is full of these statements about its God losing control.
Smiddy- You raise an interesting point. Before we debate the issue are you aware that the greek text of 12:12 clearly reads:-
"Therefore be glad, Heavens (norm) and those in them tabernacling: Woe to the earth and the sea, because came down the Devil to you ( 2nd person plural refering to Heavens) having wrath great, knowing that a small season he has."
Therefore this verse shows that the Devil has gone to the the Heavens, and is either not on the earth or the heavens are somewhere on earth.
12:13 does not concern the Devil only the Dragon. This Dragon should not be confussed with the Great Dragon of 12:9 they are not the same.
In order to make sense of the verse we must first determine their acurate translation, or their cryptic nature becomes as Jeffro puts it, idiocy.
Bart:
12:13 does not concern the Devil only the Dragon. This Dragon should not be confussed with the Great Dragon of 12:9 they are not the same.
I'm trying to figure how you reached that conclusion. Just looking at the text (Rev 12:3-17), I don't see any marker identifying "the dragon" of verse 13 as being different from any of the other references to "the dragon" in the context (3-17)
I'm not trying to be critical, just trying to understand your viewpoint.
Smiddy:
In connection with the thread topic, it is possible that the intent of the passage is not so much Satan's being 'hurled to the earth' (although it is expressed that way), as it is stating that he no longer has access to the heavens (i.e. God's residence) where he has been 'accusing our brothers day and night before our God.' (v.10) In other words, "the blood of the Lamb" has ended any basis for him to lodge accusations, and so he has been 'thrown out of court' so to speak.
If read that way, there is no need to take up the WT view that Satan and his angels are strictly confined to the vicinity of the earth. In the 1st century view of things, there was heaven (God's residence) and earth (man's residence). (In fact, earth being "down" from heaven is hardly an accurate spatial direction. It better describes how humans percieve God's position.) At the same time, the earth is where Satan's kingdom is at and, from his viewpoint, it is being invaded by his adversary's (Jesus) kingdom via their preaching and prosletyzing. Those factors (and the fact that Jesus would, at some unexpected future date - which even his disciples thought would be in "a short period of time" (cmp. Rom 16:20) - might very well explain his 'great anger.'
As an addon thought, I wonder if verse 10 ("Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ") might be a marker for the approximate time of this event. "The authority of his Christ" was claimed by Jesus in Matthew 28:18.
Take Care
Pointless or not ... it worked for Iron Maiden!
Bobcat - My viewpoint on this is that the text is as in most apocalypic writing a cryptic history of pervious events. The start of Rev 12 is a more enlightening version of the Luke birth narrative which is not describing tthe actual birth of Jesus at all but his initiation at age twelve as aproperate for the Jewish sects which maintained monastic orders. At the time described in Rev12 Archelaushad been dismissed by Rome and his control on the Judean and dispora Jewish communities lost. He was allied with the Pharisee sect and the great dragon of Rev 12:3-9, this event took place in 6CE.
With the removal of the Pharisee high priest, who at that time was Joazar Boethus, the Devil who represents the Zealots in the person of Judus the Galilean were thrown from controlling the temple and the leadership pasted to the Sadducee high priest Ananus the Elder. The Sadducees were allied with the peace party politically and therefore supported Quirinius.
In 15CE Augustus died and Tiberius became emperor and being sympathetic to the Herods, allowed them to regained enough control to select a new Pharisee high priest Caiaphas 18CE. However the Dragon of Rev12:13 is Caiaphas and he was in opposion to Mary the woman mother of Jesus at his entry into monastic life at age 23 in 17CE.
Caiaphas then continues in the position of the Dragon throughout Rev13.
That all I can remember at present but if you want to know more about the meaning of revelation and the gosples and acts I'll dig out the approperiate references for you.
Mark
He is locked in Tartarus, but can still influence mankind. He can no longer attend the heavenly council of the God's. He is really pissed at Yahweh.
DD
It has more to do with the defeat of Satan and Sin by Jesus. Satan is no longer ruler of man if man chooses to believe in Jesus. So being cast to Earth means he can only have effect on the physical, no longer are we spiritually dead as we were before Jesus' incarnation. Revelation is purely symbolic of outcomes made by the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Jesus.
