The Great Crowd and 144K explained

by Crazyguy 28 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • wallsofjericho

    At my memorial that outright lied saying that Judas was not at the meal (luke says otherwise) and hes the only one that wrote in detail about it.

    this is debated among many christian faiths, not just JW's. If you want to pick reason to single out JW's this won't cut it

  • Crazyguy

    Ds211 to answer your question about chapter 7 and coming out of the great tribulation, the writer explained to me that the word most comonly used is tribulations or trouble and not great tri ulation . So he explained it this way that a righteous person is killed in Jeremiah's day that person experience a tribulation then his death. All righteous persons that have died experience tri ulation at different times but indeed it was a tribulation.

  • heathen

    The way I see it is the GC are saved during the tribulaion but the remnant are all martyred as in revelation it specifically says that the last of christs brothers is executed by the ax . The WTBTS seems to make up it's own dogma on the issue and claims the 144k simply nod off and are resurrected , does not make sense since in order to qualify you have to share in the same sort of suffering and humiliaiton as jesus .IMO

  • wallsofjericho

    I have discussed the Great Crowd dilemma with a few others also...

    revelation identifies these ones as dressed in white robes, identified as coming out of the great trib, the July 15 WT article says:

    two decades after Christ’s enthronement in 1914, “a great crowd” of “other sheep” was identified

    If the GC were identified in 1934 & these are coming out of the great tribulation while the great trib is yet future, does that now connect the great trib to the life time (generation) of 1934?

    If the ones coming out were, according to the July 15 WT, identified "two decades" after 1914,must this now necessitate that at least some survivors of the great trib would have to have been born by 1934 at the latest?

    If so, this would require the Great Trib to happen within the next 10-20 years max. To stretch this out further....Could those in white robes be of an overlapping contemporaneous generation of 1934? its all too crazy for even me to keep straight. To think the WTS applaudes jesus' use of simple illustrations to teach, yet as a JW not even the most educated, line-toeing brainiac can keep this shit straight.

  • DS211

    Crazyguy--could be!! who knows? The WT doesnt!.

  • heathen

    wallsofjericho - that goes back to the rutherfords millions now living fiasco of which you still would be connected to the generation of 1914 of which there is about nobody from that time in the WTBTS . I would think both world wars can be considered a tribulation the world had not known before , certainly WW2 with the atom bomb being dropped and the alleged 6 million jew hollocaust and the persecution of christians that had no nationalistic ideaology . I believe with the rise of the NWO and the 666 beast will be the final test . Daniel 11 and 12 show the king of north and south fighting a war until the end .

  • Island Man
    Island Man

    One thing I feel confident in saying is this: The writer of Revelation clearly wanted to convey to the reader that the great crowd is in heaven.

    Think about it: Why would reference be made to a great crowd of gentiles standing before the throne and serving God in his temple? In Judaism, gentiles were forbidden from entering the temple. It was considered a sin for a Jew to even enter a gentile's house, far less the temple! Early christians were just getting used to the idea of gentiles mixing with Jews in worship under the new arrangement of christianity. Undoubtedly there could have still been some few lingering pockets of discrimination or apprehension about gentiles worshipping with Jews. Some gentiles may have still felt a bit unworthy given their non-Jewish background. This is the context within which one has to read Revelation chapter 7's statement of a great crowd of gentiles serving God in his temple.

    It is my belief that such a passage was meant to silence any lingering doubts in the minds of any Jewish christians about gentiles truly having the same hope as they had. It would have also served to reassure any gentiles having niggling deep seated doubts about their worthiness. Revelation's stating that a gentile group is serving God in his temple is clearly meant to cement the idea of the worthiness of gentiles to enter the intimate congregation of God - into his very temple! I believe this is the whole purpose of mentioning the great crowd from every nation right after mentioning the 144,000 Jews.

    I believe the 144,000 are literal Jews whether or not the number is symbolic. It's a way of showing that God's blessing on the twelve tribes of Israel will in fact have a true lasting fulfillment in a remnant of faithful Jewish christians. So both God's loyalty to faithful Abraham and his impartiality to people of all nations is being highlighted. Revelation 7:4-17 is John 10:16 (Other sheep = non-Jewish sheep) and Ephesians 2:11-19 in symbol.

    It is also possible that the great crowd and the 144,000 are one and the same! Perhaps the 144,000 are described as Jews because it refers to all christians who make up spiritual Israel. But notice something: John doesn't see the 144,000 in that vision - he only hears the number that are sealed. Then he sees a great crowd of every nation. Do you see what the writer could have been doing? The writer could have been employing a kind of surprise literary device. John in vision hears as if a limited number of literal Jews are being sealed only to have the lights turned on, so to speak and, surprize! surprize! It's actually a great crowd that no man can number and people of all nations are included!

    The Watchtower interpretation of "before the throne" doesn't fit the context. Saying before the throne means in the sight of God but still on earth makes no sense when you consider whythey are "before the throne". John is told that they are before the throne because they washed their robes in the blood of the lamb. Clearly, being "before the throne" is being presented as a great privilege that can only come from washing your robe in the blood of the lamb. But how can it be a privilege to just be in the sight of God on earth? Aren't even the wicked who have not washed their robes in the blood of the lamb also in the sight of God on earth? Wouldn't the wicked also be "before God's throne" according to Watchtower's twisted interpretation? This is why they must be literally before his throne - in heaven. Also, if they are literally on Earth as they have always been, why does the angel ask John "where have they come from?" "Come from?". Wouldn't they be where they always have been if they're on Earth? Watchtower's interpretation doesn't make much sense.

  • prologos

    How about the members of the 12 tribes in Rev. 7 that are NOT sealed?

    Wt opines that the 12 tribes are earthly . since the GC in their doctrine is also earthly*, it appears wt teaches really (by inference) that the GC are the twelve tribes. and

    Why does the GC carry the same promise as of Rev 21, where God is with mankind?

    may be the throne, the Naos are symbolic

    like the song: " I'm in heaven, ----"

    * yes, according to one reference, wt admits that the GC does not exist yet, will only appear during, after the GT.

    really, when you put 2 and 2 together, we are all spiritual israelites, all in the new covenant and should all partake of the B&W, but not in their abstinance-fest.

  • yadda yadda 2
    yadda yadda 2

    The 'great crowd' simply represents all Christians who receive salvation through the end time. They are a parallel to the original Israelite great company that departed Egypt and went through the parting of the Red Sea. The great crowd is the same as the 'nation' from which the 144k comes. The 144k are just a subset of the 'great crowd', being the priestly class within the great crowd. The Israelite nation also had a subset priestly class.

  • Vanderhoven7

    The 144,000 = the GC

    John heard the perfect number and then turns and sees the actual group....i.e. the promised seed of Abraham.

    The hearing and then seeing sequence is a commonly used literary device the apostle uses in Revelation to display his images.

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