A christian with an earthly hope can enter into God's Kingdom without being born again??? (page 2)

designs

With all of the differences within Chistianity on Soterology why make a big deal over JWs interpretation.

designs: you are correct that there are many differnt ideas about salvation in "christian" groups, but when you look at jesus words at john 3 unless "anyone" is born again. jw mormon catholic athiest it does not matter there is only one way and thats jesus and he is the gospel (mark 1) thats why a person must be born again to believe the gospel. notice how 1 john 5:1 states this fact "everyone" who believes that jesus is the christ has(past tense) been born again or born from God. sadly many ppl think they can bypass gods way and find there own.

designs

The way one person describes the experience of being Born Again can be completely different from another's view. In the Orthodox Faith's it is achieved after a lifetime of obedience and good works (2 phases) whereas in the Evangelical movement it is generally a ecstatic singular moment.

unstopableravens

designs: and yet i will again direct you back to the source the bible. john 1:12;13 is it a life time of good works? no is it mans will?no is it passed on from parents? no is it our own will? no it is gods will! eph 2:1-11 says we are saved by "grace" not by works, but for good works. we obey because we are born again not to be born again

designs

In the Orthodox Faiths the good life is suppose to mean they are genuinely Saved per James which groups like the Lutherans reject.

unstopableravens

designs im not lutheran and im not really knowldgeable in there belief sysytem, however the book of james is great, chapter one really shows what the fruit should look like in a born again believers life

Rattigan350

Being born again is not necessary to enter into in the kingdom.

That was a specific statement that Jesus said to Nicodemus.

And the Bible can not be the basis of what happens because those are conversations and letters, not statements of declarations to everyone.

unstopableravens

ratt: look at verse jesus words unless "anyone" verse 15 vesre 16 everyone verse 7 no it was not just him. why would the rest of the new test speak about it. why would jesus have told nic that he should have already knew about the need to be born agian because he was a teacher of isreal. it was in the old test as well ez 36:25-27

Bobcat

Rattigan350:

Your statement, "Being born again is not necessary to enter into in the kingdom," reminds me of this WT article:

[Start Quote]

*** w00 12/1 p. 29 Must You Believe It? ***

THE 12-year-old student was struggling to grasp the basic principles of algebra. His teacher presented the class with a seemingly straightforward algebraic calculation.

“Let x=y and let them both have the value of 1,” he began.

‘So far so good,’ thought the student.

After four lines of what looked like logical calculation, however, the teacher produced a startling result: “Therefore, 2=1!”

“Disprove that,” he challenged his bemused students.

With his very limited knowledge of algebra, the young student could not see how to disprove it. Every step in the calculation looked perfectly valid. Should he, then, believe this strange conclusion? After all, his teacher was much more versed in mathematics than he was. Of course he should not! ‘I do not have to disprove this,’ he thought to himself. ‘Common sense tells me that this is absurd.’ (Proverbs 14:15, 18) He knew that neither his teacher nor any of his classmates were going to exchange two dollars for one!

[End Quote - This was, IMO, a very good WT article. Proof that a good bit of what the WT says is quite valid.]

I don't intend any disrespect. You are certainly welcome to your views. But your logic led you to a conclusion that directly contradicted what Jesus said. "Unless anyone is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God . . . “Most truly I say to you, Unless anyone is born from water and spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

This also reminds me of how the WT does with the Memorial. Jesus simply said, "keep doing this" (i.e. partaking of the bread and wine). He didn't specifically say when or how often, just, "keep doing this . . ."

The WT counters, 'Well, Jesus was speaking with . . . And they later . . . And Revelation says 144,000 . . . And so, Don't keep doing this, because its not for you!'

But when it comes to something the WT states, the Society's view is, "Why are you asking questions or reasoning on this? Just listen, obey, and be blessed!"

At any rate,

Take Care

Rattigan350

Raven: you said " look at verse jesus words unless "anyone" verse 15 vesre 16 everyone verse 7 no it was not just him"

You wouldn't know Jesus' word unless John had written them down, and how do we know that they are fully accurate. The problem that I have is that it was a one to one conversation with Nicodemus, not his speaking to his disciples as a whole, or the crowd of 5000.

Why are people drawing their faith on a one to one conversation?

Even if Jesus said 'unless anyone', then it was not meant for everyone to know unless he said it in a way for everyone to hear.

A christian with an earthly hope can enter into God's Kingdom without being born again???

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