Calling all materialists and non-materialists

by willmarite 69 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • bohm

    Seraphim: "Logic breaks down when it comes to defining the details of infinity because logic is always finite. The limits of human cognition become apparent."

    Okay, but its you who are stating positively that infinities is a neccesary and sufficient condition for your life to have meaning, right? So its actually you who use logic and infinities to give your life meaning. If you can't reason around infinities, then why do you then claim that without them your life wont have any meaning? How can you know that if you cant even reason about them to begin with?

    Here is my overarching point: I think you have been told, again and again from an early age, that unless there is this "infinite", your life have no meaning, and if there is, your life does. But nobody gave you any good reasons why thats so, its just "obvious". Right now you strongly believe thats the case but you also realize (1) its not a conclusion you arrived at (2) you cant really tell why its so except to repeat the conclusion (3) it bugs you a bit I keep asking for something you feel there should be an obvious answer to.


  • Seraphim23

    Well with respect I could keep this conversation going all year if I wanted to bohm but it’s a fruitless discussion. Much better to agree to disagree I think. Love that girlfriend of yours with all your mind soul and strength. Whatever the point is in doing so you won’t get me arguing with on whether you should. As far as I am concerned I hope you do a good job in doing so.

  • bohm

    Seraphim: well okay, i just think its important to show there is absolutely no reason to think there is something more scary to a purely physical world-view. Im glad you were willing to have the conversation, the op Will shut up like an oyster the moment i asked him the same question and seem to be ignoring me...

  • willmarite

    Sorry bohm if you thought I was ignoring you. Many who believe in materialism still can find it hard to accept. Read Terry's post from the first page. Let me illustrate it this way. When I was a JW all the work that I did (service, talks, cleaning bathrooms etc.) I believed had lasting merit. I was happy doing it because I thought it had real value. When I found out it didn't have real value that it was without merit I was devasted. All my work was for nothing.

    If what bertrand russell said is correct as quoted in my opening comment then my personal view is that everything would be without merit in the final scheme of things. I'm sure you can understand this even if you don't agree with it.

  • willmarite

    jgnat - I agree with you about the illusion of free will. It rebels against intuition.

  • bohm

    Will: you are still not answering the question. What is the logic that lead you to the conclusion that your work in the kingdom hall has value IF you live forever?

    let me make it clear. Suppose i accept your bleak view. Then i believe my life has no value as it is. Now, believing ones life has no value is the default position. But you believe your life do have value because you believe you will live forever. I am asking how living forever give your life value? Whats the logical argument behind that claim?

  • willmarite

    Bohm, it doesn't look like I'll be able to explain myself in anyway that you'd understand and that's OK

  • cofty

    I cant join in this conversation. I just have no patience with all that existential angst.

    Some people need fantasies about eternity, some of us dont. Just get on with life and stop over-thinking it.

  • bohm

    Will: as far as i can tell, you havent tried to explain yourself at all.

    Here is how this conversation looks like to me:

    will: a finite cake is worthless. Only my infinite cake is worth anything. If i had a finite cake, i might as well throw it out.

    bohm: okay, but what makes an infinite cake worth something?

    will: a finite cake is worthless because you will eat it

    bohm: that was not my question. Why is an infinite cake worth something?

    will: awol for a day

    will: i thought my cake was finite once, and i was devestated. Then i realized it was infinite and now im good.

    bohm: yes, i get that. You think a finite cake is worthless. But what is it about an infinite cake that make it worth something?

    will: i cant explain myself in a way you will undérstand

    bohm: wtf!??!

  • jgnat

    Odd, will. Where did I talk about free will?

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