A child that DIDN'T want to die ... a blood experience you won't read in Awake! or on JW.ORG

by wannabefree 78 Replies latest watchtower medical

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  Marvin Shilmer

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  “When you say stuff like that Marvin, I have to wonder....

  “The "medical staff" has absolutely NO capability to declare anyone a "mature minor", since it's outside of their professional bounds as healthcare providers. The hospital has an obligation to seek out a ruling from a judge in court, which serves a role in society to provide a systems of checks and balances on behalf of the citizenry.”

  Adamah,

  When you say stuff like that Adamah I see the slip showing of a Watchtower apologist in disguise.

  You cannot find what you do above in my statement without reading it into the text.

  Saying I witnessed children being coached to convince medical staff they are a “mature minor” is not saying medical staff has capability to deem a minor as a “mature minor”.

  Either you’re a Watchtower worshipper here in disguise or else your expertise is not what you claim. Otherwise you’d have to know that judges typically interview treating physicians to get their impression of a child’s overall level of comprehension and personal conviction. Guess what? This means coaching children to convince medical staff of maturity beyond years is part of the process of ultimately convincing a judge.

  I don’t believe a word you say of yourself.

  Marvin Shilmer
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  PaintedToeNail

  None of the kids who died without blood transfusions wanted to, they were just more afraid of the threat eternal damnation than they were of death. So very pathetic.
• 

  adamah

  Marvin said-

  When you say stuff like that Adamah I see the slip showing of a Watchtower apologist in disguise.

  You cannot find what you do above in my statement without reading it into the text.

  Saying I witnessed children being coached to convince medical staff they are a “mature minor” is not saying medical staff has capability to deem a minor as a “mature minor”.

  Either you’re a Watchtower worshipper here in disguise or else your expertise is not what you claim. Otherwise you’d have to know that judges typically interview treating physicians to get their impression of a child’s overall level of comprehension and personal conviction. Guess what? This means coaching children to convince medical staff of maturity beyond years is part of the process of ultimately convincing a judge.

  I don’t believe a word you say of yourself.

  Well lookie here? How quickly Marvin went to the OT ad hominems.

  Oh, I was called a "WT apologist" (isn't that like the nastiest name possible on JWN?)

  Get over yourself, Marvin.

  Adam
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  Marvin Shilmer

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  “Well lookie here? How quickly Marvin went to the OT ad hominems.”

  Adamah,

  Your slip’s showing again.

  It’s not ad hominem to state skepticism based on evidence. What’s the evidence in your case? Reading something into my words that’s not there. And for what? For no apparent reason that makes any sense, unless…

  It’s not about me. But you can’t refrain from making it about me. Right?

  Marvin Shilmer
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  Diest

  Adamh,

  Every jurisdiciton and ever hospital is different. If a hospital did not seek to force the parents in court then nothing would be done. If the courts allowed the parents the choice nothing would be done.
• 

  adamah

  Marvin said-

  You cannot find what you do above in my statement without reading it into the text.

  Saying I witnessed children being coached to convince medical staff they are a “mature minor” is not saying medical staff has capability to deem a minor as a “mature minor”.

  Here's what you said:

  Marvin said- In my years I’ve seen plenty of sick children coaxed and coached by parents and congregation elders into being little “mature minors” in order to convince medical staff not to administer blood product forbidden by Watchtower teaching. It’s such a tragedy, not to mention a travesty.

  By suggesting these children were trying to convince medical staff not to administer blood product, you implied it was the medical staff's decision, if only the treating doctors could be convinced that they were mature. Wrong. In most cases, it's not up to the treating doctors to decide.

  In most cases, a judge has to be convinced (or at the very least, a hospital panel of bioethicists are consulted, and are generally NOT the same people involved in providing care to the patient, precisely to avoid any appearance of impropriety or conflict of interest).

  Of course the attending physician may provide testimony to the judge in the court hearing re: the pt's Dx, Tx, Px, etc.

  But if you believe the sick child is going to present evidence-based arguments to the medical staff and/or the judge that goes beyond being able to offer their mental state and maturity, or that they'll be able to present anything other than their theologically-driven fantasies to explain why they believe they should be allowed to die, you just might be as delusional as the child who believes he'll be awakening in the New System to a World of eternal panda-petting.

  Marvin said- It’s not ad hominem to state skepticism based on evidence.

  Wrong (yet) again.

  An ad hominem is an ad hominem, regardless of WHY you felt it was justified.

  Your defense is as hollow and childish as the attack itself, and if you had any decency or honor, you'd offer not an excuse, but an apology.

  Adam
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  Marvin Shilmer

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  “An ad hominem is an ad hominem…”

  Adamah,

  True.

  But a skeptical opinion based on extrapersonal evidence is not ad hominem.

  Ad hominem is an attempt to reject a view (or have it rejected) because of the person making it, usually involving something negative about the individual.

  Guess what? That’s not what I did.

  I rejected what you said of my statement because I did not assert as you claimed.

  Learn about it.

  The fact is that over and over again the Watchtower organization has attempted to use doctors by having parents and/or elders coach sick children to sound and act as little adults. Apparently you don’t like this being advertised.

  Marvin Shilmer
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  Band on the Run

  I don't know the status of American common law or that of any nation when it comes to teens. Justitia once posted an article that chilled me. When children are young, elementary school or younger, the states steps in. There are cases involving teens that hold that a minor is capable of making a religious decision to die or not allowing it. I believe the judge interviews the teenager and conducts/orders research. The reported case allowed a fourteen year old boy to reject treatment. Perhaps the judge hated young people.

  I still have my core beliefs from my teenage years but life experience has molded me. The very act of attending law school made me much more pro-business than I was during college. Nuance matters now. I am the same and yet I am glad I matured- mostly matured. What does it say that someone seventeen cannot decide to refuse treatment and the same person a day older and now eigtheen may legally decide to refuse treatment.

  Wondering if anyone has ever researched this. I can not even imagine being such a judge. Perhaps I am jaded but beware.........

  What type of elders, particularly parents, offer up child victims/sacrifices?

  My mom never had a say in deciding whether to salute the flag and stay in school. No one asked her. She had no place else to go but home.
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  flipper

  What a horrifically tragic occurence. The WT Society has thousands of lost lives and bloodshed on it's head regarding blood transfusions not being given to minor children and adults. The sad thing about minor children is they can't have any say over idiotic parents unless the courts go to bat for them. WT Society is a criminal organization. I've said it before, AND i'LL SAY IT AGAIN - the WT Society is a criminal organiztion and needs to be held accountable for it's crimes against humanity
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  Justitia Themis

  Marvin said- In my years I’ve seen plenty of sick children coaxed and coached by parents and congregation elders into being little “mature minors” in order to convince medical staff not to administer blood product forbidden by Watchtower teaching. It’s such a tragedy, not to mention a travesty.

  By suggesting these children were trying to convince medical staff not to administer blood product, you implied it was the medical staff's decision, if only the treating doctors could be convinced that they were mature. Wrong. In most cases, it's not up to the treating doctors to decide.

  I must disagree Adamah. If a pediatric provider determines that a minor is a "mature minor," s/he can make the decision to 'respect' the child's decision making by not seeking a court order.

  As BOTR noted, I posted regarding just such a controversial JW case, a case that was discussed as a recent pediatric bioethics conference.

  2013 Bioethics Conference

  Cases That Keep Us Awake at Night: Challenges in Pediatric Bioethics

  There are cases that test our moral values, raising complicated ethical issues in our day-to-day care of individual patients. Frequently, as they search for the proper course of action, clinicians and families seek advice from ethics committees or consultants. Yet, even when these situations are resolved, they may leave us feeling unsettled and uncertain. Did we do the right thing? Did we act in the best interests of all concerned? Could we have done more?

  • Should a teenager be allowed to refuse a lifesaving blood transfusion on religious grounds?

  The conference was webcast, and the presentation is available here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Tg5ZzzTMLE&feature=youtu.be

  An Adolescent with Leukemia Refuses a Blood Transfusion
  David Woodrum, MD (Bio, Presentation)
  D. Micah Hester, PhD (Bio, Presentation)
  Marlena Dietzway, JD (Bio, Presentation)

  For any members that are interested in pediatric bioethics in general, the whole conference is available here: http://www.seattlechildrens.org/research/initiatives/bioethics/events/pediatric-bioethics-conference/2013-pediatric-bioethics-conference/