WHY did we used to read this verse and think that it referred to Satan? How can anyone??

by The Quiet One 17 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • transhuman68
    transhuman68

    LOL, there is a serpent mentioned in tablet eleven of of the 18 century B.C. Sumerian Epic of Gilgamesh; which may be the inspiration for Genesis 3. Sometimes a serpent is just a serpent...

    The main point seems to be that when Enlil granted eternal life it was a unique gift. As if to demonstrate this point, Utnapishtim challenges Gilgamesh to stay awake for six days and seven nights. Gilgamesh falls asleep, and Utnapishtim instructs his wife to bake a loaf of bread on each of the days he is asleep, so that he cannot deny his failure to keep awake. Gilgamesh, who is seeking to overcome death, cannot even conquer sleep. After instructing Urshanabi the ferryman to wash Gilgamesh, and clothe him in royal robes, they depart for Uruk.

    As they are leaving, Utnapishtim's wife asks her husband to offer a parting gift. Utnapishtim tells Gilgamesh that at the bottom of the sea there lives a boxthorn-like plant that will make him young again. Gilgamesh, by binding stones to his feet so he can walk on the bottom, manages to obtain the plant. He intends to test it on an old man when he returns to Uruk. Unfortunately, when Gilgamesh stops to bathe, it is stolen by a serpent, who sheds its skin as it departs. Gilgamesh weeps at the futility of his efforts, because he has now lost all chance of immortality. He returns to Uruk, where the sight of its massive walls prompts him to praise this enduring work to Urshanabi.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_of_Gilgamesh

  • Comatose
    Comatose

    The NWT says god was angry and that someone caused David to do a census. The other translations all say god was angry and god caused David to do a census.

  • kepler
    kepler

    My own researches is that the explanation of Genesis serpent is a very late idea. It appears in the deutero-canonical book "Wisdom", written in Greek by an Alexandrian Jew.

    The last words of Chapter II, verses 23-24.

    For God created human beings to be immortal , he made them as an image of his own nature.

    Death came into the world only through the Devil's envy as those who belong to him find to their cost.

    New Jerusalem Bible. Accordingly it notes it was used by church fathers in the second century AD. It is suspected to have been written sometime before Philo, probably around 2nd half of 1st century BC.

    I agree that elsewhere in the OT, there is no reference to the devil, and yet in the NT he or a demon stands behind every tree.

    Josephus says in the Jewish Wars that there were three parties of belief in Judaea and that the Essenes most closely resemble this point of view ( he does not mention Wisdom there, however, if he mentions it at all elsewhere). He claims that the Essenes must have got their notions from the Greeks. I had thought he was talking about Aegean Greeks until I encountered this piece probably from Alexandria. I am unaware of any copies of this among the Dead Sea Scrolls, however.

  • FlyingHighNow
    FlyingHighNow

    With a god like Jehovah, who needs a Satan?

  • Bart Belteshassur
    Bart Belteshassur

    SBF- The NWT adds the words "when one" in 2 Sam 24:1 and there are no brakets to indicate their departure from the original MT. This is placed here in order to remove the contradiction between this verse and 1Chron, and to shift the responsibility of the murder of 70,000 innocent Jews from Jehovah to Satan.

    Kepler- "I agree that elsewhere in the OT, there is no reference to the devil,"

    There is only one reference to Satan in the OT in 1 Chr 21:1. However there are other various uses of the hebrew word satan which means adversay, resitor, or opposer. The first is in Numbers 22:22, where the "Jehovah's angel" acted "as opposer" the hebrew in the MT shows "as satan".

    In addition in Job the refence is to "the satan" as it is in Zechariah 3:1,2. The use of as satan and the satan only show that, and we can assume whoever fills this roll uses this title, and that they are either a single angel or the role of satan could be filled by any of them. However in 1 Chr 21 the use of Satan as a proper noun indicates a specific individual and this is the first use of the term in this way.

    Did you mean to imply that the content of the NT is more likely to be Essene in its nature as opposed to Pharisee, Sadducee, or Zealot?

  • L3G
    L3G

    Could the appearance of the statement at James 1:13-14 be caused b/c of the tension between 1 Chron 21:1 and 2 Sam 24:1? In other words, were first century believers struggling with these passages?

  • DATA-DOG
    DATA-DOG

    Villagegirl said, " I think its interesting the original Hebrew meant "the shining one"

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkEX6_f2EAk&feature=player_detailpage

    I found this interesting. Also the word for "wild beast" in the NWT, "khah'-ee", has MANY uses. The Strong's number is H2416. There are sveral ways to translate that verse. If you believe that an spirit spoke through an actual snake, then go with the NWT. There are other alternatives.

    DD

  • kepler
    kepler

    Bart B:

    There is only one reference to Satan in the OT in 1 Chr 21:1. However there are other various uses of the hebrew word satan which means adversay, resitor, or opposer. The first is in Numbers 22:22, where the "Jehovah's angel" acted "as opposer" the hebrew in the MT shows "as satan".

    In addition in Job the refence is to "the satan" as it is in Zechariah 3:1,2. The use of as satan and the satan only show that, and we can assume whoever fills this roll uses this title, and that they are either a single angel or the role of satan could be filled by any of them. However in 1 Chr 21 the use of Satan as a proper noun indicates a specific individual and this is the first use of the term in this way.

    Did you mean to imply that the content of the NT is more likely to be Essene in its nature as opposed to Pharisee, Sadducee, or Zealot?

    ----

    Bart B,

    I am familiar with your 1 Chronicles reference to David and the census - and the subsequent decision to build a temple - and had forgotten about it when I wrote that the above note. It puzzles me in the sense that every other "satanic" reference I've heard of does not seem to hold much water ( e.g., Ezekiel comparing the King of Tyre or Isaiah speaking of Lucifer or the morning star - they are denouncing earthly kings).

    The most compelling argument though is that Genesis, the Penteteuch and whole OT absolutelydrop the subject after chapter 3. It does not come up in conversations between the Lord and Abraham, the Lord and Moses or anyone else. And in comparison to the lucid writing in Wisdom, the incident in Chronicles does not really tell us anything. Why that particular census was out of order or demonic is baffling. But there are hints.

    Reading Job, we are confronted not with a serpent but a figure in a celestial court. And the test is a wager. This was written in a time when there were camel caravans, which dates it to some time after the Assyrians introduced them into the Mideast, perhaps the 8th century. It was certainly not Mosaic as the appendices of the NWT insist. The structure fo the book has prose introduction and epilog - and verse in between. Everything is restored to Job in this life after the end of the poem - with interest. I am inclined to think that ha satan means "the opposer" or someone who takes the antagonistic view. This was not someone that was thrown out of heaven for rebellion.

    It is odd though, that if this incident is that important, then why does it not figure in Kings as well? After all, David does. When was Chronicles written? During a period of post exile, contemporary with Nehemiah and Ezra. What was a pre-occupation? Re-BUILDING the temple. Who was in control? The Persians. What was their religion? Zoroastrianism, the belief of the Magi.

    On the last question, the content of the NT, I at first thought that there might be another group to consider (Persian influences such as the Magi), as indicated by what I said about the incident in Chronicles. After all, the NT with Matthew begins with genealogy in chapter one, and in chapter two we have visiting Magi ( check the Greek) looking for the birthplace of a "leader" who will shepherd the people of Israel. ..

    When I read the Zoroastrian texts, to say the least, they resembled the Book of Enoch or Milton's Paradise Lost more than anything I read in the Old Testament. And as far as I know, they are the oldest version of this cosmology. Manicheanism seems to be a re-birth of it centuries later, originating again in the East, but infiltrating into early Christian churches. For example, Augustine of Hippo had to decide whether he would be a Manichean or a more orthodox Christian. He chose the latter, but a lot of his views were probably formed from his earlier life.

    But the parsing of Jewish beliefs by Josephus in that early chapter of "The Jewish Wars" does not give any credit to the Persians for anything. He attributes such beliefs as the Essenes had to the Greeks. Still, the Persians ruled Judeaa much longer than the Greeks and without significant revolt. And the Hellenic Empire was a thin veneer of Greeks over regions that simply treated the whole affair of Alexander the Greate as a change of hands, save for improved communications medium their alphabet and language provided. To a certain degree the Greek heirs of Alexander were assimilated just like the Mongols were in China.

    So, when Josephus speaks of Essenes resembling Greeks, what was Greek about their beliefs? It wasn't the gods of the Iliad or Olympus, but maybe the notion of Hades. Was it Neo-Platonism? Perhaps, but I don't think the Essenes were all that given to meditate on perfect triangles. I would say that their Greek influence was some sort of adaptation of Zoroastrian, Greek and Judean beliefs. And at the time, that meant seeing a great evil spirit in contest with the Creator.

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