Theism without the bible, Koran, or any books and a question!

by Seraphim23 29 Replies latest jw friends

  • Seraphim23
    Seraphim23

    I was thinking that to put oneself into the mind-set of someone else without the background and upbringing that we had is very hard to do. If I could live several lives without knowing I was doing so, to then compare all of them at the end of those separately lived lives would pose an interesting set of questions. One of these would be regarding what I would believe after the comparison of numerously lived dispositions and cultural upbringings. What would I believe then? We are all different because of our parents and culture, the times in which we lived and genetic traits, circumstances and list continues on. In the same way and for overlapping reasons, what we believe is a result of these things. So take away all the things that vary between people and which make them think or believe differently, and what it left? Perhaps nothing is left but one could consider that a few things are going to be same no matter the upbringing and culture. These might include the laws of physics at least, unless one lives in the vicinity of a black hole which is unlikely but what else? Perhaps the way reason itself works, although this is a harder case to make because we all have reason, yet all have miner or major differences in opinion. There are rules to reason that not all adhere to of course, but I mean reason on a more profound level i.e what is reason, comprehension and understanding and experience and what do they have in common for all peoples and cultures and individuals? There must be something they have in common which makes we wonder why I believe the way I do and is it right? The million dollar question perhaps but a valid curiosity none the less!

    Take away my atheist dad and theist mother. Take away my privileged western upbringing of the 20 th century and take away my own inbuilt biases that come about through DNA and culture. What then do I believe and why because I have no bible or Koran or any of those things? I could go in the other direction and not take these things away but compare my life to those of many others from different walks of life and distil my and their views down to a single strong thread, or would all the threads cancel themselves out like a neutralising solution leaving nothing? One can almost imagine a Shakespeare quote at this point. So here we are:

    To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,

    Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,

    To the last syllable of recorded time;

    And all our yesterdays have lighted fools

    The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!

    Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player,

    That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,

    And then is heard no more. It is a tale

    Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,

    Signifying nothing.

    So knowing the futility of faculty or the perils and promise of reason, can one believe in God, perhaps not the biblical one of course but a God none the less and a monotheistic one at that? Well if a supreme being exists it does provide an effective rebuke against Macbeths negligent spirit does it not? Possibly it is more persuasive than any humanist argument for purpose, which to me feels like a toy that winds itself up only to break anyway.

    So after all this rhetoric my question is simple and open to both believer and non-believer alike:

    If there was no religion (organised that is) and no books like the bible, Koran or cultural stories of creation and nursery rhymes and so on, is there a basis for theism? I think there is of course being a believer in God but what do others think? This is not a question about should we believe or not? Nor is it a question about proof or not, rather it is a question about reasons for, aside from culture, the bible and what we have been told.

  • cofty
    cofty

    Without inheriting beliefs from parents, society or holy books, humans would still be inclined to ascribe random events to an unseen agency. The details would be different but there would be many similarities to things that are common to current religions. We would still supertitiously seek ways to appease the deity and make up stories about what she/he likes.

    On the other hand, if we wiped out everything that is currently known through science and started again, we would arrive at precisely the same facts that we know now. The same age of the earth, the same common ancestry of living things, the same periodic table of elements etc etc.

    The way we arrived at those truths may be different but the conclusions would be the very same.

    Theism is a human construct. Religions and gods are temporary, we invent them and discard them at will. Reality is what still exists whether we belive in it or not.

  • fakesmile
    fakesmile

    interesting question. id say yes. the reason being that human brains need an excuse for things not understood, lightning comes to mind. also, there has never been a shortage of people wanting to dominate others. what better excuse than supernatural punishment for disobeying? id go so far as to say that some type of theism is a necessity in the course of human development.

  • Seraphim23
    Seraphim23

    Cofty and fakesmile you both make good points. I guess you would agree that religion and monotheism as a subset of such beliefs have or had a utilitarian function in human development and was useful for a time, but despite this is wrong and false in actuality and may even be harmful now in the modern era. I get that viewpoint, but what about reasons that are valid rather than functional.

    I.e reasons for belief that make philosophical sense and always would do based on things like the fact of the periodic table and what that means other than a list of the elements? For instance the periodic table not only lists the elements, but provides a clue to the idea that all matter in on a fundamental level made up of one thing by virtue of the fact they are related to one another. Here the number one seems to be significant just like one God may be more significant if he exists, than two three or more. Also the periodic table seems to indicate that mathematics has a role in explanations of the physical world and does this provide a philosophical basis for God? Is it a strong reason or a weak reason and so on?

  • cofty
    cofty

    The periodic table is just electrons doing their thing. No philosophy required.

  • Giordano
    Giordano

    At some point in time as mankind evolved we became self aware of our mortality as well as understanding that there were natural forces at play in the world. Be it floods, wild beasts, or tornado's that needed to be avoided or compensated for.

    Primitive religion was infested with many different gods who were responsible for a wide range of issues that included lighting, human folly and human concerns.

    The Jewish God was singular and carried the burden of all of the Jewish cultural traits. Love and hate, peace and war, respect and misogyny, he was the life giver and the life taker. He even walked on this planet interfering in the trials and tribulations of the people.

    A Christian God evolved and this god and his son were also a reflection of the culture and concerns of that day.

    Later on the Koran was written and it to was also a perfect reflection of it's time and culture.

    It is easy to invent a particular god and religion look at the Mormons.

    The JW's didn't invent anything new but their god is a perfect reflection of their glossy view of the world and their role in it. Which is to live an achingly dull life and flee from any creativity or human spirit.

  • Seraphim23
    Seraphim23

    One doesn’t have to do philosophy true but science does come from that same branch of human reason, before the different branches of philosophy diversified, one of which is science. Even in that branch we call science there are interpretations of the data in some areas that lead inexorably to philosophical questions.

    For instance the fine tuning argument regarding the universe having to be exactly the way it is for life to exist can persuade some that God exists without any need for a religious book. It doesn’t prove Gods existence because of the counter arguments, but the counter arguments rely on a philosophical approach not a scientific one. So here philosophy is required to an extent, although both sides of the fine tuning argument cannot conclusively make their case as a deeper set of questions are revealed.

  • Giordano
    Giordano

    In more primitive societies two factors emerge....a belief in a spirit world and also a belief in objects be it a special tree or holy mountain, something real, special and meaningful.

    It is also interesting to note that wildly different cultures in distant parts of the world believe in the same things like witch's and shape shifters, and all sorts of invisible ghostly thing's that we would laugh at. And these same tribes and people's study the stars for signs and portents. And these things make perfect sense to people who have been educated by their environment.

  • cofty
    cofty

    the fine tuning argument regarding the universe having to be exactly the way it is for life to exist can persuade some that God exists without any need for a religious book.

    That's a god-of-the-gaps argument. Let's give physics time. "Every mystery ever solved has turned out to be not magic" - Tim Minchen

  • prologos
    prologos

    neutrons too govern the heavier matters and and neurons firing in patterns come up with weighty ideas like gods angels good&bad and other fairy tales.

    it leaves us with the good question did anyone work at that?

    perhaps not fine tuning but fine adapting?

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