The relationship between the Father and Son. What's your opinion?

by DATA-DOG 34 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Cold Steel

  DATA-DOG: Ever since I realized that there is no proof that Jesus = Michael the Archangel, I wondered about who Jesus was.

  The answer, quite simply, is that Jesus = Yahweh, or Jehovah.

  Recall that after the fall of mankind, Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden of Eden. Since they could no more have direct relationships with the Father because of transgression, they and their offspring needed an intercessor. That intercessor was Jehovah, the God of Israel, the great I AM who stood before Abraham and who spoke to Moses face to face. Jehovah was born into earthlife to die for the sins of all mankind. Jehovah is specifically referred to in the Old Testament as our Savior, our King, our Shepherd, and our Judge. He's the Beginning and the End, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords and is, of course, the great Messiah ben David.

  At the end of the Millennium, after the final contest with Satan, Jesus/Jehovah will offer up the Earth, redeemed and glorified. His work will be complete and there will no longer be a need for an intercessor.
• 

  DATA-DOG

  Cold Steel,

  So you believe that the Father and YHWH are two different beings, and that Jesus was YHWH in human form? Is that correct? Do you believe that YHWH existed as the WORD eternally, alongside/with/in the Father? I have thought about this before.
• 

  Cold Steel

  Yes, correct. Jehovah is not the Father, but he is the Father's only Begotten Son. I believe all men and women are the sons and daughters of God, but of us all, he is the greatest and most intelligent. As an eternal being, he was born half man and half God. In the beginning, he directed the creation of this world and many others. Is the Father and Son aspect more metaphor than literal? I don't know. If it is metaphor, God is the one who originated it. Fathers have wives and children; however, we also know that we're created beings. In the beginning, the Father knew that Adam would fall, and He knew that it was as necessary as the Atonement. So the Father walked and talked with Adam in the Garden, but when Adam fell, the Father knew there would be a rift between Him and all mankind. That's why an intercessor was needed, and that intercessor was Christ. As the intercessor, Jehovah carried out the will of the Father, and the only words that He ever spoke to mankind were, "This is my beloved Son. Hear him!" In other words, He was one witness of the Son, and the Holy Spirit was the other. Thus, in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

  After the Atonement, Jesus was raised in the flesh and formally given all power and dominion. And John the Beloved later testified that Jesus, now resurrected was in the "express image" of the Father. And because of Jehovah's sacrifice, he made it possible for all men to become joint heirs with him. And this means that all men have the potential of becoming like Christ, meaning they may inherit "all that the Father has." We continue to pray to the Father directly in the name of Christ. And as world events take shape, Jesus will eventually come and judge all mankind. Throughout the scriptures, Jehovah is said to come and judge the nations of the earth, but John said that "the Father judges no man, but has committed all judgment to the son." (See John 5:22) That would be considerable power for an archangel! The reason the Son judges all mankind is because he died for us and is our advocate to the Father. Thus, when the earth is glorified and redeemed, it's not going to be merely a garden, but will shine like the Sun; and those who inherit it will become like God -- not because they earned it, but because as sons of God they inherited it through the Atonement.

  So once man has been resurrected and assigned to their various places in the afterlife, and the earth has been redeemed and glorified and Satan and his angels are driven out into outer darkness, Jesus will have finished his work and will turn it back to the Father. As the Lord said in one of our scriptures, "For this is my work and my glory, to bring to pass the immortality and the eternal life of man."

  Anyway, that's how I see it.
• 

  DS211

  How about this..

  WHO IS JESUS?

  Numerous titles and attributes of Jehovah found in the Hebrew Scriptures are applied directly to Jesus in the Christian Greek Scriptures.

  • Jehovah knows “all things.” (1 John 3:20; Psalm 147:5) Jesus knows “all things.” (John 16:30)
  • Jehovah is the only one who knows the hearts of all men.(1 Kings 8:39; Jeremiah 17:9-10) Jesus knows the hearts of all men. (John 2:24-25; Rev. 2:18, 23)
  • Jehovah is our sanctifier. (Exodus 31:13) Jesus sanctifies us. (Hebrews 10:10)
  • Jehovah is our peace. (Judges 6:23) Jesus is our peace. (Ephesians 2:14)
  • Jehovah is our righteousness. (Jeremiah 23:6) Jesus is our righteousness. ( 1 Corinthians 1:30)
  • Jehovah is our healer. (Exodus 15:26) Jesus heals us. (Acts 9:34)
  • Jehovah God dwells in us. (2 Corinthians 6:16) Jesus is in us (Romans 8:10). 7.
  • Jehovah is the giver of life who will not allow His people to be “snatched” out of His hand. (Deuteronomy 32:39) Jesus is the giver of life who will not allow His people to be “snatched” out of His hand. (John 10:28)
  • Jehovah’s voice is “like the roar of rushing waters.” (Ezekiel 43:2) Jesus’ “voice was like the sound of rushing waters.” (Revelation 1:15)
  • Jehovah is present everywhere. (Proverbs 15:3; Jeremiah 23:24; I Kings 8:27) Jesus is omnipresent. (John 1:48; Matthew 18:20; 28:20)
  • Jehovah’s nature does not change. (Malachi 3:6) Jesus’ nature does not change. (Hebrews 13:8)
  • Jehovah is the only God we are to “serve.” (2 Kings 17:35) Jesus is to be served. (Col. 3:24)
  • Jehovah is the only God to be “worshipped.” (Exodus 34:14) Jesus receives the same honor and “worship” that the Father receives. (John 5:23; Revelation 5:11-14 compare with Revelation 4:10-11) 8. No angel can receive “worship.” (Revelation 22:8-9)
  • Jehovah the Lord is to be set apart as holy. (Isaiah 8:12b-13) Jesus as Jehovah is to be set apart as holy. (1 Peter 3:14b-15a)
  • Jehovah’s glory is not to be given to another. (Isaiah 42:8) Jesus shares Jehovah’s glory. (John. 17:5)
  • God’s name is Jehovah (or Yahweh–YHWH). (Isaiah 42:8) Jesus has Jehovah’s name. (John 17:11; John 16:14-15)
  • Jehovah is the only God to be mentioned in prayer. (Exodus 23:13) Christians are to pray to Jesus. (John 14:14)
  • Calling upon Jehovah (Joel 2:32) is the same as calling upon Jesus. (Acts 2:21; Romans 10:9-13) 9.
  • Jehovah “the true God” is called “eternal life.” (1 John 5:20) Jesus is called “the eternal life.” (1 John 1:2)
  • Jehovah is the “mighty God.” (Jeremiah 32:17-18; Isaiah 10:20-21) Jesus is the “mighty God” (Isaiah 9:6) who is “Almighty.” (Revelation 1:7-8) THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD. (1 Timothy 1:17; Isaiah 44:8)
  • Jehovah is an “everlasting light.” (Psalm 27:1; Isaiah 60:19-20) Jesus is the light of men and the everlasting light of the future city. (John 1:4-9; Revelation 21:23)
  • Jehovah is “the first and the last.” (Isaiah 44:6; 48:12) Jesus is the “first and the last.” (Revelation 1:17-18; 22:12-13, 20)
  • Jehovah is the “Alpha and the Omega.” (Revelation 1:8; Revelation 21:6-7) Jesus is the “Alpha and the Omega.” (Revelation 22:12-13, 20 )
• 

  rawe

  Hi DATA-DOG,

  "What do you think about the Father and Son relationship?"

  There appears to be two primary Gods in the OT, "El" and "Jehovah." The first God was "El", but the final redactors who compiled the OT portion of the Bible before it closed to change, truly loved "Jehovah" and gave him a prominent role, but... it was not enough to prevent Jehovah from dying out between time of Malachi and the NT era.

  I believe the historical Jesus would likely have been known simply as a Rabbi. However, the fully developed character of Jesus in the NT seems primarly focused on him as the "Christ" and "Son of man" and "Son of God." Without a doubt Jesus is the hero the NT, and even though no NT writer says he eclipses the "Father", in terms of stage time and speaking parts he clearly does. So I think the NT ends just short of the fully developed doctrine of the trinity, that would come in the next two centuries.

  Cheers,

  -Randy
• 

  warehouse

  warehouse wrote:
  
  but I thought I'd just throw these two scriptures out there, and see what everyone thinks of them:
  

  • John 17 (yes, the entire 26 verses)
  • Hebrews 5:1-10

  
  

  I'll post my own thoughts tomorrow after the annual meeting . . . lol, if anyone is even cares then.

  After I read the entire 17th chapter of John, I can only come to the conclusion that God the Father and Jesus his Son are two distinct entities, both of whom can exist separate from each other and make independent decisions. The glory in vs 5 is the same glory in vs 22 and vs 24. So even the apostles are capable of attaining this glory (to a degree, I guess that's a separate topic for debate).

  I can agree with Jesus and Jehovah being the same individual. If all of Jehovah's dealings with the Israelites, Moses, Abraham, and Adam/Eve is really Jesus, then ok, that makes sense as long as above and beyond this scenario the existence of a higher being than Jesus/Jehovah is recognized.

  The reason that God the Father must exist is found at Hebrews 5:1-10. These verses for me have always proven that Jesus did not, and could not glorify himself. If he did, then his role as a king/priest is null and void.

  This is how I understand it, at least from the perspective that the Bible is true and accurate and the word of God the Father and/or Jesus.
• 

  jhine

  DS211 YES

  Data Dog , my understanding is very close to your own on this . Of course the WT says things like how can Jesus be God and be on earth while God is in heaven . One of the early church writers mentioned by another poster (good suggestion , by the way ) talks about Jesus being of the same substance as the Father and likens this to a ray of sunlight seen on the earth but the sun is still in the sky .

  I assume that you are aware of the "naughtiness " of the WT when translating passages like Col 1:16 where they insist on putting the word "other " into the text where it is not found in the Greek . ? They do it elsewhere to detract from the fact that the Bible makes it clear that Jesus was not created . I'm sure that you must know this , so I appologise for re-stating but for anyone not familiar with this fact it might prove interesting . Another line of enquiry which I found interesting was looking at the meaning of the word Logos or Dabar in Hebrew .

  I will repeat this quote , though at the moment I cannot say where it came from , I have it copied down in longhand in a notebook.

  " In the old Testament 'the word of God ' (dabar ) is used 394 times of a divine communication which comes from God to men in the form of a commandment , prophecy, warning or an encouragement . Yaweh's word is an extension of the divine personality , invested with divine authority , and it is to be heeded by angels and men . It stands forever (Is 40;8 ) and once uttered it cannot return unfulfilled (Is 55 :11 )

  I have found it fascinating to delve into Jewish thought about the Word as it seems to me that when John wrote about the Word becoming flesh he wrote as a Jew to Jews so it made sense , to me at least , that his writing would strike a chord with Jewish readers familiar with the OT .

  Jan
• 

  UBM101

  Good thread
• 

  Vanderhoven7

  Amen DS
• 

  DATA-DOG

  Bumping for newbies.