I suppoose Yadda that you are a world renown expert on the topic? Even if it is learned, and the real science suggests that it isn't, WTF difference does it make. What consenting adults do is of no concern to me so long as they aren't harming anyone.
If God knows how we are wired, Why punish people for being gay?
by suavojr 19 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Zoos
Yadda, you say 1% of gays are born that way, confirming the fact gays do come hard-wired.
Now it's time to back up your little number.
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slimboyfat
Approx 10% of rams will have sex with another ram in preference to a sheep.
Crofty is this based on empirical research?
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DJS
OBSERVE. That's all it really takes. Years ago when I was very young, and long before gays or lesbians could even possibly come out or even speak of such things, I noticed that a number of my classmates were probably gay/lesbian. I knew all of the Judeo/Christian teachings about the topic, but I couldn't resolve the god thing when it came to simply oberving my classmates, all of whom were and still are very good people, who didn't particularly seem like 'everyone else.' None of them acted on it at the time that I know of because it simply wasn't accepted.
I observed the same thing with my children's classmates, young children (pre-teens) who fit this same description. All of them, to my knowledge, openly are gay/lesbian NOW.
It is difficult for me to believe that everyone on this board and every lurker doesn't have identical experiences. Remove god from the equation and it all becomes very clear. People are people. One's sexual preference hasn't a wit to do with anything about whether or not they are an ethical, decent, kind, loving, considerate person. That's all I care about.
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DJS
The biggest problem with this post, and the biased, prejudiced and hate filled beliefs and feelings about the topic is because the argument starts with a false premise. From the definition: A false premise is an incorrect proposition that forms the basis of an argument or syllogism . Since the premise (proposition, or assumption) is not correct, the conclusion drawn may be in error. However, the logical validity of an argument is a function of its internal consistency, not the truth value of its premises.
"If god knows . . . " is a false premise. By believing in this imaginary creature and supposedly the only avenue of guidance form her, the bible, everything then is forced into the god concept (the false premise). Instead of viewing gays, for example, as normal and acceptable, becaue of the false premise from which the argument begins, gays are somehow evil, wicked, doomed for destruction. They can't be right and they can't have been born this way. It has to be a choice. 'cause god . . .
Wake up theists. Use your gray matter. Leave the cave. Climb the evolutionary ladder up and away from the lower primates. Be all you can be and maximize your DNA.
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suavojr
Djs you said: "If god knows . . . " is a false premise. By believing in this imaginary creature and supposedly the only avenue of guidance form her, the bible, everything then is forced into the god concept (the false premise). Instead of viewing gays, for example, as normal and acceptable, becaue of the false premise from which the argument begins, gays are somehow evil, wicked, doomed for destruction. They can't be right and they can't have been born this way. It has to be a choice. 'cause god . . .
Thank you for that observation, it is hard for a person like me to think outside the realm of a God. Therefore my false premise is the reason why I can't reconcile the pain and suffering that we cause others just because we are not alike.
The more a theistic person studies human behavior and the reasons why we do what we do, the less likely a God has anything to do with our way of life. But this false premise still does not cancel the the concept of a God. Only our perception of a God simply changes with the knowledge of the moment. That to me is the challenge of a believer, trying to make sense of book that is looked at as infallible.
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Monsieur
The more a theistic person studies human behavior and the reasons why we do what we do, the less likely a God has anything to do with our way of life. But this false premise still does not cancel the the concept of a God. Only our perception of a God simply changes with the knowledge of the moment. That to me is the challenge of a believer, trying to make sense of book that is looked at as infallible.
Suavojr-
The concept of 'God' and the perception of said 'God' is one and the same.
Discard whatever notion you have been taught 'God' is (angry old man in heaven dispensing punishment and suffering) and the word 'God' will start to take on all new meanings. Interestingly, the Bible makes it clear what God is all along- God IS Love, above all things. And if YOU are made in that image of Love and you don't hate gay or lesbian people, then what makes anybody believe that God DOES hate them?
The reality does not contradict what is written Biblically of 'God' concerning gay people. There is no record of any fiery punishment descending on a gay person anywhere, no matter how hard you look for it.
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fulltimestudent
Assumes that most gays are born that way. Biggest gay propaganda myth. Only about 1% are born that way, we can let them go. But most homosexuality is a learned behaviour.
I'm also waiting to see the source of this claimed research. I take an interest in the research because of my gay XJW friend and I have not seen anything resembling Yadda's claim that only 1% of gays are born gay.
The APA (American Psychological Association) is still saying, that whatever the cause may be of a person' attraction to the same sex, that:
most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation. Web reference: http://www.apa.org/helpcenter/sexual-orientation.aspx
So if Yadda can't produce research based evidence for his statement, his comment can be discarded as just another display of prejudice, or more likely a reflection of his own emotional confusion on the topic.
I will however agree that homosexuality can be a "learned behaviour."
For example young male victims of adult sexual predators may experience conflict between what they have been taught about male/male sexuality and the sexual pleasure they may experience during penetration. They may find great emotional difficulty in resolving this issue.
During the Ottoman empire, a so-called "boy tax" existed. Government inspectors would visit villages and take away young men for government service. Some were, it seems, later trained in sexual practise. (others were placed in administrative bodies and military). To keep some balance in this practise, it has been noted that some parents would groom their sons so that they would be noticed by the inspectors and thus be given an opportunity to serve in government, military that they would not otherwise achieve. Did some groom their attractive boys to be noticed? It appears so. To become the Sultan's favourite would mean an opportunity for the family to escape village life (usually poor) and become middle class or more. The point to note is that for those selected for sexual training with other males may have been what we call 'str8' and were therefore 'taught' homosexual behaviour.
A similar phenonemon can be noted in Japan. Male2male sexual activity has been noticed in Japanese monasteries, and among samurai warriors (very similar to the ancient greek "army of lovers"). Gary Leupp (Professor of History at Tufts University - http://ase.tufts.edu/history/faculty/leupp.asp - note his research publications) notes in his 'Male Colors - The construction of Homosexuality in Tokugawa Japan', that male to male sexual intimacy in that era, was so common, that it could be called "normative." I therefore suggest, that the Japan of that era (and it continued until western morality in the guise of modernity collided with tradition-but thats another good story) was a society where sexual tolerance existed and what we call bi-sexuality became the norm. If there is no native (inborn) attraction toward the same sex (the basis of modern theories for inherent 'gay' natures) then both homosexuality was learned behaviours.
But as you will likely think out for yourselves, these past sexual experiences of humans incline us to some very complicated thoughts
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Gopher
37.2% of all statistics are made up on-the-spot.
(In reference to the 1% 'born that way' claim someone made earlier in the post.) If someone firmly wants to believe that 99% of gay and lesbian people actually CHOOSE to be in that hated minority, there's probably no talking them out of it. The more you try to bring factual evidence to a dyed-in-the-wool believer of what they want to believe, the more hardened they become in their belief bubble.
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fulltimestudent
I disagree about stats, Gopher. In my readings I've mainly focussed on Aussie based research. A number of surveys have been conducted by the University of New South Wales***. These researchers attempted to arrive at a percentage for gay people in the Australian community. They set a percentage of 5%. They made that estimate after many surveys, and I believe that it was an honest attempt to arrive at a figure, that contrasted sharply with the 10%+ suggested in the 1948 Kinsey Institute survey published in 1948. ( I would not condemn Kinsey's methodology)
But I do have a lot of trouble with the UNSW methodology, which more or less came down to meeting 'out' gay people at gay community organisations and having them fill out a survey form. I suggest that, even today, when it is much easier to identify as gay, that in any survey today, many will not self-identify as gay.
How many married gay JWs (in self-denial) do you imagine would admit that they are gay?
So while admitting that surveys are difficult - particularly on this topic - I don't believe they are just "made up!"
In connection with whether or not its worth discussing the issue with a 'dyed-in-the-wool believer,' I'd like to believe that the community has a responsibility to clear the minds of these misinformed people, particularly as most of the most rabid homophobes expressing themselves on web-sites are more likely, rather than less likely, to be same sex attracted. The vile comments they can often make are an expression of their own internalised hate for themselves.
You may disagree and wonder why? But think about it, if you are opposite sex attracted you do not have any real reason to spew forth vile comments about someone else's sexual activities. But, if you a person that is constantly dealing with your own tendencies to be tempted by a male body, then you have to constantly provide yourself with reasons why you should not succumb to temptation. As far as gay JWs are concerned my friend believes that the H2H work brings gays in denial in contact with other gays. Dunno!
Hopefully, as time goes along and a rational understanding and acceptance of male2male sex and affection grows in our general communities, there will be fewer and fewer people who suffer the internalised conflict we call 'homophobia.'
That's why I'm prepared to discuss it - not so much to help gay people (thought there's an element of that in regard to my gay XJW friend) as to help the poor bastards who have 'torn' personalities as a result of Church teachings.
*** maybe because (smile)at one time, the University Chancellor of the time - Dr. John Yu, was well known as gay.
He was also Australian of the year in 1996 - mainly because of his years of service as head of the main Children's Hospital in Sydney (once at Camperdown, now at Westmead).
http://www.australianoftheyear.org.au/honour-roll/?view=fullView&year=1996&recipientID=99
