Musings about different types of atheist!

by Seraphim23 304 Replies latest jw friends

  • Seraphim23
    Seraphim23

    A thought that occurs to me is that if one has the belief that all that is real is only explicable in terms of particles and forces, and that nothing exists that is not one of these, then good and bad doesn’t exist either, the same would be true for any concept for that matter. Or perhaps it is only true when reduced to the level of matter and forces, but without the moral force, meaning and purpose that such a materialist only description would entail. After all, if death is forever, which is materialist view, then what does it matter if a seventy or seven year old enters the grave? Their eternal state infinitely outweighs the length of time they were alive and so death at any age, or no life at all, is all the same to an infinite degree! Even the cause of death, or amount of suffering entailed in that death, is of complete inconsequence when compared to infinity of oblivion. In fact any life experience, understanding, thoughts, and so on is infinitely nothing when measured against infinity of oblivion.

    Obviously if the only truth is described in terms of forces and particles or some such description; concepts like good and bad don’t apply at such a level. If meaning and purpose don’t really exist, nor does good and bad? What meaning and purpose could there be if the only truth to be had is in descriptions of particles and forces, unless truth also applies to a level of reality beyond a mere description of that which makes up the material universe? They say man is more than the sum of his memories, but could it also be that things are more than the sum of their parts? If so what would explain that? Certainly it couldn’t be on the level of particles and forces! Something more is required. It doesn’t have to be God, although it could be, but at a minimum it would require a third element that is not physical in nature but connects to the physical.

    Some metaphysical or other type of realm would seem to be necessary to supply meaning to reality in various ways and it would also be part of reality, or at least connect to it in some way. If not, then meaning and morals do not exist and the inner reality of self is only an illusion. If there is no other world apart from the physical one, and in that reality truth is only a description at atomic levels of particles and forces, it follows that anger at God or religious people for believing in a God is pointless and meaningless. The argument that belief in God harms people or causes wars and so on, should not matter at all because truth doesn’t apply to good and bad but only to the description of material at its smallest level.

    So an atheist should probably believe in some form of reality that is not physical in nature as well as the one that is, because if they do not, and they want to say religion is bad or untrue, it would be pointless for them to do so because even their own perception and inner reality is not true but an illusion and as pointless as that they would criticise. A rational atheist would take into account general philosophical concerns, not just scientific ones.

  • cofty
    cofty

    Seraphim - You have had enough discussions with athesits on this forum to know why your post is not even wrong. Please tell me it's satire.

    Are you deliberately trolling?

  • Seraphim23
    Seraphim23

    Trolling?

  • Phizzy
    Phizzy

    A "rational" Atheist ? I have never met an irrational one. I think in common with a number who have posted on here over the years, you have a misconception about Atheists. It is not a single camp where simply one view exists. The one thing only, that is the defining thing about Atheists is this:

    Atheists deny the existence of God.

    Anyone who does not do that falls into the camp of the Agnostics, Theists, Deists etc etc.

    Just because we say there is no God does not preclude us from having an appreciation of all sorts of Philosophical and Logical ideas.

    The Problem of Evil has been better dealt with by Atheists than by Believers.

    The problem of What is Truth ? has been dealt with similarly in a far more satisfactory way.

    For example, many Atheists appreciate that for life to be good, it needs to be meaningful, ( for us), and to be truly good, the life lived needs to be a moral life.

    We appreciate too, that it is logically possible for many things to be in "existence", in heaven and earth, than are as yet thought of in our Philosophy, let alone Horatio's.

    What is wrong with our position ?

    One thing I have found with most Atheists is that we are rarely Dogmatic about our position, we simply lead evidence based lives, and so, if you insist that Unicorns or Santa exist, we need proof.

    I humbly suggest you read some of the great Atheist thinkers, Russell (not C.T LOL !), and maybe some modern ones like Julian Baggini and A.C Grayling, you will see that the intellectual position held by Atheists is far from as simplisitic as you infer.

    Love and Peace to you.

  • cofty
    cofty
    if one has the belief that all that is real is only explicable in terms of particles and forces, and that nothing exists that is not one of these, then good and bad doesn’t exist either

    Good and bad are judgements we make about things that contribute to or harm the well being of conscious creatures.

    The superstitious lobby need the comfort of imagining that good and bad really exist "out there" somewhere like the standard sample of the 1 metre bar against with all other metres are measured. It's a hang-over from Platonic essentialism. There is no absolute good or bad - these are not things or objects. It's a fallacy called reism...

    but without the moral force...

    What is a "moral force"? Did you just invent it a minute ago?

    what does it matter if a seventy or seven year old enters the grave?

    We only have a few decades to live the only life we have. Naturally there is greater pain when a child dies because of the loss of potential of the life they never got to live.

    Even the cause of death, or amount of suffering entailed in that death, is of complete inconsequence when compared to infinity of oblivion

    All suffering is temporary. Believers were so incensed that their enemies' suffering would cease at death they invented hell.

    To assert that suffering is therefore inconsequential does not deserve a response.

    If meaning and purpose don’t really exist

    Says who?

    The rest of your post is based on your wrong assertion above and the reism fallacy.

  • Seraphim23
    Seraphim23

    I appreciate the comments Phizzy but I did allude to different atheist positions. My dad is an atheist so I am not ignorant of whom they are. Some do have metaphysical belief systems of one form or another as you say. However there is no scientific proof for those by definition just as there isn’t for the reality of the inner subjective world or moral truth. Ideas such as morality and good don’t apply to a materialist only view of reality. Something more is needed to make it a rational position.

  • Seraphim23
    Seraphim23

    Cofty you and me will beg to differ if you dont mind.

    I prefer discourse with the open minded.

  • cofty
    cofty
    Ideas such as morality and good don’t apply to a materialist only view of reality

    Why do you continue to repeat this foolish assertion when it has been debunked many times?

  • Seraphim23
    Seraphim23

    If you dont like it you can post on other threads.

  • cofty
    cofty
    I prefer discourse with the open minded.

    You mean you prefer not to talk to people who point out your fallacies. My post contained substantial points.

    You are determined to misunderstand and grossly misrepresent the position of those who reject your superstitions and make no effort to educate yourself.

    It's a discussion forum, you don't get to choose who posts on what threads.

    I asked you if it was intended as satire or if you were trolling - trying to start an argument for the sake of it - because your OP is full of canards that have been dealt with many times.

    Perhaps you could respond thoughtfully to my detailed reply above.

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