How is Salvation Achieved?

by JosephAlward 14 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  SixofNine

  The information that you received was on a man made org. they are separate from God.

  Right, but as I pointed out, once one gets enough information about the bible, many people are disgusted by the god described therein. And yet, that same bible is where this stuff about salvation comes from, and the stories about Jesus. Do you equate a clear look at the horrors spoken of as God's will in the bible as "stumbling"?

  I still don't see the connection you're trying to make between predestination and free will. They seem polar opposites. It just doesn't make sense to use the term predestination in such a manner.

  Our free will comes in to play as we individually hear and choose to have faith and believe or not believe.

  What about people like me, who have heard and can't believe, as it isn't logical? What about all those who never will hear, not in their lifetimes?

  Just because one chooses to walk away from a religion does not mean they have to walk away from God.

  So very true. What about people who have a very strong belief and faith in God, but reject totally and w/o reservation the bible and all that comes with it, including the scriptures we are discussing?

  Personally, I don't think most people who go on about free will, have given much thought to the alternatives. It's funny to me, I can't think of any alternatives to free will, that still allows for human conciousness. In fact, I wonder if most people aren't confusing free will and conciousness.

  Folks talk about the wonderful gift of free will. I don't see that there are any alternatives. Therefore, how is it a gift?

  The vast majority of humans don't have any meaningful dose of freewill anyway. We wouldn't call it "mind-control" if it didn't control our minds (for one small example of the lack of free will in some humans). Thru human effort, more and more people are gaining a measure of free-will in their lives. This process seems to be sped up as more and more people ignore religious doctrine and get on with reciprocity.
• 

  noidea

  I still don't see the connection you're trying to make between predestination and free will. They seem polar opposites. It just doesn't make sense to use the term predestination in such a manner.

  The use of the word predestination (game plan) would be based on : What God's will or purpose for mankind is.

  Free Will:
  1 : voluntary choice or decision <I do this of my own free will>
  2 : freedom of humans to make *choices* that are *not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention.*

  That is what we are given.
  We can choose not to do his will. If someone wants to murder they have that choice. But with that choice comes a consequence. That consequence may be the electric chair. A person knows the possible outcome of their crimes before they are committed. It's still their decision as to whether or not they choose to do so. They are willing to accept that risk it's again their choice.

  once one gets enough information about the bible, many people are disgusted by the god described therein.....Do you equate a clear look at the horrors spoken of as God's will in the bible as "stumbling"?

  If He exist and created and set the rules and laws. It's his game..ball and bat. We can play like he wants or we can get out of the game.

  What about people like me, who have heard and can't believe, as it isn't logical? What about all those who never will hear, not in their lifetimes?

  What about people who have a very strong belief and faith in God, but reject totally and w/o reservation the bible and all that comes with it, including the scriptures we are discussing?

  
  I can understand why many do loose faith in God and the Bible. Look around it seems for so many that life is unfair.
  Until you walk a mile in another man's shoes how could one even begin to judge what they have faith in. We can't.

  Do I have the answers "NO" *thus the user name noidea.

  The only thing I have and choose to have is faith. What is faith? .. Faith is the firm belief in something for which there is no proof. Does that mean that I am still engaged in mind control? *hmmm...maybe

  For those that do have faith in him ..we have to rely on him knowing the circumstances and the heart condition of an individual and him doing right by them.
  That faith is what I have to have to help me get through the every day to day living. Am I living in a dream world..*hmm..maybe

  But until someone is willing to walk in my shoes then and only then can they judge me.. For those that can't believe.. I judge them not.

  psst Six..has anyone ever told you ...you ask a lot of questions..
  *remembers why she was sticking with the fluff post.

  ~Noi~
• 

  Nemesis

  Hi Joseph,
  I see you have had quite a few posts from others since mine.

  In regard to predestination—I have to say I agree with what the Watchtower taught on this in the Insight book, here are the details below. I hope they answer the point you are referring to.

  Foreordination of the ‘called and chosen.’ There remain those texts that deal with the Christian “called ones,” or “chosen ones.” (Jude 1; Mt 24:24) They are described as “chosen according to the foreknowledge of God” (1Pe 1:1, 2), ‘chosen before the founding of the world,’ ‘foreordained to the adoption as sons of God’ (Eph 1:3-5, 11), ‘selected from the beginning for salvation and called to this very destiny’ (2Th 2:13, 14). The understanding of these texts depends upon whether they refer to the foreordination of certain individual persons or whether they describe the foreordination of a class of persons, namely, the Christian congregation, the “one body” (1Co 10:17) of those who will be joint heirs with Christ Jesus in his heavenly Kingdom.—Eph 1:22, 23; 2:19-22; Heb 3:1, 5, 6.

  If these words apply to specific individuals as foreordained to eternal salvation, then it follows that those individuals could never prove unfaithful or fail in their calling, for God’s foreknowledge of them could not prove inaccurate and his foreordination of them to a certain destiny could never miscarry or be thwarted. Yet the same apostles who were inspired to write the foregoing words showed that some who were “bought” and “sanctified” by the blood of Christ’s ransom sacrifice and who had “tasted the heavenly free gift” and “become partakers of holy spirit . . . and powers of the coming system of things” would fall away beyond repentance and bring destruction upon themselves. (2Pe 2:1, 2, 20-22; Heb 6:4-6; 10:26-29) The apostles unitedly urged those to whom they wrote: “Do your utmost to make the calling and choosing of you sure for yourselves; for if you keep on doing these things you will by no means ever fail”; also, “Keep working out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (2Pe 1:10, 11; Php 2:12-16) Paul, who was “called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ” (1Co 1:1), obviously did not consider himself individually predestinated to eternal salvation, since he speaks of his strenuous efforts in striving to attain “the goal for the prize of the upward call of God” (Php 3:8-15) and his concern lest he himself should “become disapproved somehow.”—1Co 9:27.

  Similarly, “the crown of life” offered such ones is granted subject to their faithfulness under trial until death. (Re 2:10, 23; Jas 1:12) Their crowns of kingship with God’s Son can be lost. (Re 3:11) The apostle Paul expressed confidence that “the crown of righteousness” was “reserved” for him, but he only did so when he was certain that he was nearing the end of his course, having “run [it] to the finish.”—2Ti 4:6-8.

  On the other hand, viewed as applying to a class, to the Christian congregation, or “holy nation” of called ones as a whole (1Pe 2:9), the texts previously cited would mean that God foreknew and foreordained that such a class (but not the specific individuals forming it) would be produced. Also, these scriptures would mean that he prescribed, or foreordained, the ‘pattern’ to which all those in due time called to be members thereof would have to conform, all of this according to his purpose. (Ro 8:28-30; Eph 1:3-12; 2Ti 1:9, 10) He also foreordained the works such ones would be expected to carry out and their being tested because of the sufferings the world would bring upon them.—Eph 2:10; 1Th 3:3, 4. (Insight 1988, Vol. 1, p. 859)
• 

  trudy

  We are 'called' out of darkness and into God's wonderful
  light. (1Peter 2:9)

  Dear friends,
  A question for you,
  Is the 'great crowd' still in darkness, since God
  has not called them?
  God calls everyone, it is up to us to answer God's
  calling. If not, we are practicing sin.

  And how about this scripture in (1 Peter 3:8-9)
  "Finally all of you be like minded, empathetic, having
  affection for brothers, disposed well to pity, lowly minded,
  not paying back bad for bad, or reviling for reviling,
  because into this 'You Were Called.'
  (Jeremiah 7:"And now, for the reason you kept doing all
  these works, is the utterance of Jehovah, and I kept
  speaking to you, getting up early and speaking, but
  you did not listen and I kept 'calling' you but you
  did not answer, I will do also to the house upon
  which my name has been called, in which you have
  been trusting."
  (see also 1 Peter 2:21)

  May we all obey his calling.

  love,
  Trudy
• 

  DazedAndConfused

  Joseph,

  I again ask...waht is your agenda here? Are we microbes under a microscope or are you truly seeking "the truth"?