How is Salvation Achieved?

by JosephAlward 14 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • JosephAlward
    JosephAlward

    What does the Bible teach one has to do to be saved? Is faith alone sufficient, or must one not only have faith, but also do good works? Is loving your neighbor enough? What about predestination? Were all those to be saved chosen before the world was formed?

    What do you think?

    Save Yourself with Good Works

    Jesus says that one will inherit eternal life if one does the following things: Obey the commandments, and give to the poor all that one owns. Thus, by doing these good things, one gains salvation.

    18 A certain ruler asked him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" 19 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone. 20 You know the commandments: `Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.' " 21 "All these I have kept since I was a boy," he said. 22 When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." (Luke 18:18-22)


    Good Works Don’t Gain Salvation

    For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8)

    8 So do not be ashamed to testify about our Lord, or ashamed of me his prisoner. But join with me in suffering for the gospel, by the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us to a holy life--not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. (2 Timothy 1:8-9)



    Love Your Neighbor to Go to Heaven

    25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" 26 "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?" 27 He answered: "`Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind' ; and, `Love your neighbor as yourself.' " 28 "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live.” (Luke 10:25-28)

    Faith is Not Enough

    What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder. 20 You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"and he was called God's friend. 24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. 25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. (James 2:14)


    Have Faith and Be Baptized

    Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. (Mark 16:16)


    Predestination

    3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. (Ephesians 1:3-6)

    Joseph F. Alward
    "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

    http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

  • Farkel
    Farkel

    Good observations, Joseph!

    : What do you think?

    Since all the evidence you've presented contradicts itself, it would be foolish to trust it. That was the entire point of your thread, was it not? Therefore, I think seven006 had the right idea in a comment he made today on this board. He mentioned "Sacramental Scotch." I think that is the key to salvation. Enough Sacramental Scotch will make one either

    1) Saved or
    2) So blasted s/he doesn't care a whit about being saved.

    In point two above, the idea is that a person gets so blitzed that s/he is saved from even WORRYING about being saved. That's a sort of "salvation" in itself, is it not?

    And you know what? I'll bet you a cup of coffee I can find a Scripture that can be used to support that notion! A little twist here, a little out-of-context there, a little "modern day application" here and voila! Booze = Salvation.

    It's all Bible-based, you know.

    Farkel

  • Carmel
    Carmel

    Farkel,
    What a hoot! Scotch with a biblical twist! You could be a "spiritual" bartender....

  • Nemesis
    Nemesis

    Hello Joseph,

    Why do you make posts like this? It’s very simple if you really want the answer. Funny how some who don’t believe find it so hard to master a simple principle.

    Salvation is based on whole souled love of God and Christ, and deep mature faith. None of that is a contradiction. True faith will produce works, the works are the result of true faith and love, but cannot be used to earn salvation; no amount of works would ever be enough. That is why salvation is based on love and faith. Salvation is an underserved gift, having true faith and love will gain us the gift from God.

    A simple illustration of faith and works, if faith = honesty, and works = actions. (For example) If you claim to be an honest person [have faith] then your honesty will naturally produce good works, i.e. you will act honestly, you will not lie, rob, steal, or defraud. It’s the honesty [faith] that gets God’s approval and the gift of salvation, if it’s truly genuine then the good works will manifest—just like a good tree producing fine fruit.

    It’s all very simple Joseph, true love and faith will produce good works as an after effect. The after effect [good deeds] are not the saving agent—faith is, and God’s undeserved kindness will follow.

  • JosephAlward
    JosephAlward

    Nemesis, you have not addressed the question of predestination. The verse below seems to say that whoever is to be saved was chosen long before they were even born, before even the world was created. How does this fit into your theology?

    3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. (Ephesians 1:3-6)
    Joseph F. Alward
    "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

    http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

  • ozziepost
    ozziepost
    The verse below seems to say that whoever is to be saved was chosen long before they were even born, before even the world was created. How does this fit into your theology?

    And ..? Seems you may be judging this on the basis of human experience, but I'm not sure.

    Cheers,
    Ozzie

    "If our hopes for peace are placed in the hands of imperfect people, they are bound to evaporate."

    - Ron Hutchcraft Surviving the Storms of Stress

  • noidea
    noidea
    Nemesis, you have not addressed the question of predestination. The verse below seems to say that whoever is to be saved was chosen long before they were even born, before even the world was created. How does this fit into your theology?

    ummm..could it be through Free Will?
    God grants life *predestined* it to those who want it. It's our Free Will to accept his gift or not.

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine
    ummm..could it be through Free Will?
    God grants life *predestined* it to those who want it. It's our Free Will to accept his gift or not.

    That concept kind of renders Ephesians 1:3-6 silly and moot then, doesn't it? If every human is "chosen", then why even mention it in that context?

    Also, with this free will concept in mind; are people who have never heard about this "gift" or whose religious upbringing predisposes them to turn away from bible based doctrine, still able to have an equal share of "free will" in choosing to accept this gift from god? What about people who have learned enough about the bible to be disgusted with it, and by extension, any concept of a "gift of god" that comes out of it?

    I mean, it wasn't "free will" that got me out of the WT organization, it was information. I didn't have it previously. Now I do.

  • gold_morning
    gold_morning

    Joseph,
    Consider Acts 10;34........Peter said

    "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism, but accepts men from every nation who fear Him and do what is right."

    We were commisioned to preach and sprend the hope of salvation thru Jesus Christ. If we were predestined there would be no need to spread the word to people.

    Romans 14:12 says that each of us will give an account of himself to God. Again......if we are "pre saved" there would not be an accounting for anything. If we are accountable for what we have done then it stands to reason we can chose what we do....and do not do.
    Romans 2:6.."God will give to each person acording to what he has done."

    God being the almighty and residing in us.....IS ALL KNOWING. There is no getting around the fact that our salvation is based on our hearts. Only he knows what you REALLY THINK.
    Spend the time opening (softening) your heart to Him personally. Making him your friend and not worry so much about all the technicalities of everything in the bible. If you need answers to every little thing you will miss out. If is interesting to study scripture, but not essential to be saved. He wants good people who love Him, not bibical scholars. The scribes and pharisees were such and it got them no where. Legalism is a handicap when it comes to having salvation and peace from within about God.

    John 5:39 has Jesus saying this very thing, how some would study the scriptures to get eternal life and yet they never KNEW HIM.
    Study will indeed help you know all "about Him"....but not really know Him personally.

    One more interesting thought. I know the it is very important to JW's to aquire knowlege. They use John 17:3 which their NWT bible says this. "This means everlasting life, their taking in KNOWLEDGE of you...........
    All other bibles DO NOT HAVE THE WORD KNOWLEDGE THERE!!
    They read......."This means everlasting life, their knowing YOU the only true God and your son Jesus Christ.
    BIG DIFFERENCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    AGAPE LOVE gold morning

  • noidea
    noidea

    That concept kind of renders Ephesians 1:3-6 silly and moot then, doesn't it? If every human is "chosen", then why even mention it in that context?

    11 In him we were also chosen, [5] having been predestined
    according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,
    12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.
    13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, (Eph. 1:1-13)

    Our free will comes in to play as we individually hear and choose to have faith and believe or not believe.

    Also, with this free will concept in mind; are people who have never heard about this "gift" or whose religious upbringing predisposes them to turn away from bible based doctrine, still able to have an equal share of "free will" in choosing to accept this gift from god?
    Even Jesus was disgusted with the religious leaders of his time. Yet, he showed what was important..serving God and having faith in his promises. Just because a religion butchers the word does not give us a go directly to boardwalk pass. We are all accountable for our actions and what we choose to believe or put our faith in.

    What about people who have learned enough about the bible to be disgusted with it, and by extension, any concept of a "gift of god" that comes out of it?
    Either one exercises "Faith" or they don't..the choice is still up to that person. Anyone can allow themselves to be stumbled.

    I mean, it wasn't "free will" that got me out of the WT organization, it was information. I didn't have it previously. Now I do.
    The information that you received was on a man made org. they are separate from God. Just because one chooses to walk away from a religion does not mean they have to walk away from God. There again an individual decision. We have that free will to make up our own choice. With every choice good or bad there is a consequence.

    ~Noi~

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