Wt 2013 oct 15. KNOWING God is not about knowledge, it´s a conviction, LOL!! (page 2)

MrFreeze

You have to convince yourself.

In other words, for the WT god to be real you have to lie to yourself enough to where you believe it.

1. tec seems to be advocating faith in God based on one's inner voice, whereas the WT would never endorse such an idea because the rank and file don't get to commune with the holy spirit, only the anointed do. The WT asserts that faith can be based on broadly visible evidence, which actually places their claims on more tenuous ground than tec's because the WT's evidence (or lack thereof) can be examined more objectively than tec's personal experiences which are the basis of her faith.

You missed the point, since you apparently misunderstand my and/or her position:

She claims to hear Jesus' voice, which I'm asserting is perceptible evidence (if only to her); therefore, if it's perceptible evidence (whether seen, heard, etc) then it's not going to contribute to supporting one's BELIEF via FAITH (which requires UNSEEN evidence, or second-hand accounts as provided by reading Bible accounts), but via DIRECT EXPERIENCE which provides KNOWLEDGE (eg as provided by Jesus' offering SIGNS/MIRACLES, which are witnessed by using sensory skills, and are processed by use of logic/reasoning).

Jesus repeatedly pointed out how supporting BELIEF via FAITH is far superior to basing it on KNOWLEDGE (and use of logic/reason), since he pointed out how witnessing miracles failed to build one's FAITH, even in his apostles, and the Bible repeatedly states that FAITH is what matters.

2. I think you misunderstand the WT article's phrase "faith in God". They are saying that we can have faith that God will do this and that after we are confident he exists. "Faith" in this context is not "belief in God's existence", but "belief in the fulfillment of his promises", therefore it is not circular reasoning.

That changes nothing, since it's still circular reasoning (well, circular illogic): the claim relies on an unproven claim to support another unproven claim.

Adam

friendaroonie

Im not sure you characterize what the watchtower really is saying here to be fair. To say you must be convinced of something is not necessarily saying it must be a conviction. Tos call spmething a convoction these days is to draw up a conotation of unrational fanatisism or fundamentalism. I think the watchtower is correct in this csse and its a non issue to me.

Mr Fool

"To say you must be convinced of domething is not necessarily sayit it must be a conviction"

If somenone is strongly convinced that there are high intelligent life from other planets who visits us, is that not a conviction?

And when he sees crop circles in the fields outside his house he suddenly has faith because of the so called "evidences"?

One side note, why do Jeh Witnesses read the Watchtower when they ALREADY KNOW GOD?

Apognophos

She claims to hear Jesus' voice, which I'm asserting is perceptible evidence (if only to her); therefore, if it's perceptible evidence (whether seen, heard, etc) then it's not going to contribute to supporting one's BELIEF via FAITH (which requires UNSEEN evidence, or second-hand accounts as provided by reading Bible accounts), but via DIRECT EXPERIENCE which provides KNOWLEDGE (eg as provided by Jesus' offering SIGNS/MIRACLES, which are witnessed by using sensory skills, and are processed by use of logic/reasoning).

Jesus repeatedly pointed out how supporting BELIEF via FAITH is far superior to basing it on KNOWLEDGE (and use of logic/reason), since he pointed out how witnessing miracles failed to build one's FAITH, even in his apostles, and the Bible repeatedly states that FAITH is what matters.

Oh, I see. I might agree with you then, except I don't really know the nature of what tec claims to hear. It seems to me that she said she was listening to a sort of intuitive, inner voice rather than actually hearing things. In which case she is referring to the sort of emotion-based faith that Jesus seemed to look for in his followers, rather than evidence-based faith. But I haven't spoken with her that much or read a lot of her posts; you're the one who's been doggedly obsessed with her beliefs for a while now, so I suppose you would know better than I what her standpoint is.

Mr Fool

adamah

Apo said-

Oh, I see. I might agree with you then, except I don't really know the nature of what tec claims to hear. It seems to me that she said she was listening to a sort of intuitive, inner voice rather than actually hearing things.

No? Then you likely didn't read the prior thread the recent one was based on, since she described her perception. She provided a link to it, but apparently you didn't feel the need to bother reading it?

In which case she is referring to the sort of emotion-based faith that Jesus seemed to look for in his followers, rather than evidence-based faith. But I haven't spoken with her that much or read a lot of her posts; you're the one who's been doggedly obsessed with her beliefs for a while now, so I suppose you would know better than I what her standpoint is.

Yeah, that "doggedly obsessed" statement is proof you didn't read it carefully, as you apparently missed that TEC put my name in the title of the thread, and ASKED me to respond in the latest thread, since she thoughtfully didn't want to hijack the OP's other thread (not to mention that this was all a continuation of an ongoing conversation). She was considerate to do so, and I obliged by responding as the prior interactions have been positive and polite.

Adam

Mr Fool

Emery

It feels like a middle school kid wrote this article. Can't you say this about any god or thing? "The only way you can have strong faith in Thor is if you're convinced Thor exists. I believe he exists because, where else would lightning bolts and thunder come from if not from our mighty king's hammer?"

Cadellin

I believe this is the same brilliant article (or issue) that presents evolution as a false religious doctrine and attempts to refute it on that basis.

With that kind of "logic," there's not much you can do in response except roll your eyes.

Wt 2013 oct 15. KNOWING God is not about knowledge, it´s a conviction, LOL!!

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