In Revelation, why is one verse to be taken literally and the other figuratively?

by I_love_Jeff 14 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • I_love_Jeff
    I_love_Jeff

    Why is the great crowd in Rev.7:9, standing before the throne mind you, to be taken figuratively and on Earth if the same description (before the throne) in Rev. 14:3 is used in a literal sense and in Heaven?

    Rev. 14:3 Literal "......before the throne......144,000". In Heaven
    Rev. 7:9: Figurative "....great crowd....standing before the throne...." On Earth.
    #2476 ?στημι histemi {his'-tay-mee} to stand v.
    http://www.lexiconcordance.com/greek/2476.html

    In case the Jehovah's Witnesses decide to do some word magic, the link above will direct them to the meaning of the word "histemi". There are two different meanings (see link above). According to the definition of the Greek word "histemi" it can be used figuratively OR literally. They choose it to be figurative. Why? They use the following argument to prove their point : specific numbers (144,000) are to be understood as literal. Not exact number:symbolic . Here is the problem with this idea: Reading Rev. 21:16-17 the numbers are very specific yet symbolic in JW teachings. 12 foundations and 12 gates bearing the names of the twelve tribes of Israel (Revelation 12:12-14). The city is 12,000 stadia long, 12,000 stadia wide, and 12,000 stadia high (12 x 1000), with walls 144 cubits thick (12 x 12)

    Revelation 7:9 describes the great multitude as "standing before the throne" and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes." That puts the "great multitude" in Heaven! The phrase "before the throne" is the same phrase used of the 144,000 in the later vision (Rev. 14:3), and always pictures location in Heaven (Rev. 1:4; 4:5, 6, 10; 7:9, 11, 15; 8:3; 14:3; 20:12).

    Again with the information given, why is the great crowd in Rev.7:9, standing before the throne, to be taken figuratively and on Earth if the same description (before the throne) in Rev. 14:3 is used in a literal sense and in Heaven?

    Are they trying to force Scripture into validating a preconceived doctrine?

  • UBM101
  • I_love_Jeff
  • dozy
    dozy

    Are they trying to force Scripture into validating a preconceived doctrine?

    Thats what the WTBTS do with most of their unique doctrines. They discard or re-translate scriptures ( using the dreaded { } brackets ) that contradict their doctrines and if 1 out of 100 quotes from bible scholars supports their doctrine they will cherrypick that quote and ignore the others. If not , they can always quote them out of context. Quite sad really , for an organisation that claims to uphold the scriptures.

  • Honesty
    Honesty

    A cult can interpret Scripture anyway they want to.

  • XBEHERE
    XBEHERE

    Because they are all standing before god's throne in heaven. All Christians are destined for that hope not the dual hope the WTS promotes.

  • Bobcat
    Bobcat

    I_Love_Jeff:

    This might not directly answer your question, but hopefully provide some material for consideration:

    The Greek word rendered "before" (enopion, Strong's # 1799) is given these basic meanings in the AMG Word Study Greek Dictionary

    I. Used of things meaning before, in front of. Elsewhere of persons, before, in the presence of, in sight of.

    II. As marking the manner, especially the sincerity with which anything is done before God or in the sight of God, meaning God being present and witness [of].

    III. Metaphorically, meaning in the sight of or in the mind, will, purpose or judgment of someone.

    Just as a thought, it is possible (contra the Society) that in both Rev 7:9 and 14:3, "before" is not intended to show literal spatial orientation or location. 14:1 already shows a location for the 144,000 ('with the Lamb, on the Mount Zion.'), so that "before" may have one of the non-spatial meanings above. Otherwise it would be somewhat redundant.

    Notice also in 14:3 that it is not just "before the throne" (which would be enough to show location in heaven, if that was the intent), but "before the thone and before the four living creatures and the elders." The singing of the song "before the four living creatures and the elders" may be intending to convey that the song the 144,000 sing has some relation or significance to them as well.

    Another thing to consider is that the whole vision, starting from 4:1, is being seen in heaven. Yet, many of the things being seen by John are, as evidenced by the context, happening on earth. With that in mind, "before" may be more often used in metaphorical terms, rather than as a literal location identifier.

    (Just as a side note: The fact that the song is sung "before the four living creatures and the elders" would logically identify the "[24] elders" as different from the 144,000, in the same way that it would differentiate the 144,000 from "the four living creatures." The Society identifies the "elders" as the same as the 144,000, further skewing their identification of the scene.)

    (As another side note: In reference to the song of the 144,000 being sung before the "four living creatures and elders," Ephesians 1:8-11 mentions 'the things in the heavens and the things in the earth being gathered together under Christ,' so that the 'Lamb and 144,000' may represent a new ruling order in the heavens that will affect the situation of the '24 elders' and 'four living creatures.' This might answer to the reason that the song of the 144,000 is 'sung before them.' And again, the Society identifies "the things in the heavens" as the 144,000, further preventing them from seeing the possibilities mentioned here.)

    For reference, here is a list of occurrences of enopion in Revelation:

    1:4; 2:14; 3:2, 5 (x2), 8, 9; 4:5, 6, 10 (x2); 5:8; 7:9 (x2), 11, 15; 8:2, 3, 4; 9:13; 11:4, 16; 12:4, 10; 13:12, 13, 14; 14:3 (x2), 10 (x2); 15:4; 16:19; 19:20; 20:12

    Here is a list of occurrences of histemi (stand) in Revelation (also showing a propensity towards metaphorical use:

    3:20; 5:6; 6:17; 7:1, 9, 11; 8:2, 3; 10:5, 8; 11:4, 11; 12:4, 18; 14:1; 15:2; 18:10, 15, 17; 19:17; 20:12 (In a number of cases it occurs in conjunction with "before."

    Take Care

  • Narcissistic Supply
    Narcissistic Supply

    Revelation.....Just a really bad acid trip.

    Bad Drugs....and some dude w/ an axe to grind. IMO

  • BluesBrother
    BluesBrother

    Interesting reply, Bobcat.. I do take the O/P meaning though. When the Society gives a detailed, verse by verse explanation of Revelation they have come up with a reason behind every verse, even though a lot of it is obscure. The best that can be said (being kind) is that they do their best.

    Personally , I go with those who say that the explanations just fit in with their preconceived theology . It is all the opinion of men

  • I_love_Jeff
    I_love_Jeff

    Thanks Bobcat!!

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