by TheApostleAK 14 Replies latest jw friends
Has anybody got a decent argument that defeats the WT argument that Isa 66:6 in the Septuagint contains the greek word Naos in this scripture.
Basically this is one of the arguments the WT uses to show the greek word Naos can mean more than the Sanctuary.
More info see the Great Crowd article of 1981.
Help!
From Alan
hmmm. well you could clue them in to the fact that the bible is nothing but a book written by men, filled with empty meaningless chatter.
nah i guess that wouldnt work.
u could counter them with a better question like how come so many child rapist are freely roaming the halls.
guess that wouldnt work either
sorry, cant help you. the real question is why would you even waste your time trying to defend utter crap like their twisted make believe crapola.
flower
anti-dubist
For one thing, the Septuagint was simply a translation of the Hebrew scriptures into Greek. That translation was no more "insprired" than the English King James or New International Translations. So the fact that a particular Greek word was seleted by the translators of the Septuagint to translate a particular Hebrew word proves nothing. The fact is, Bible scholars tell us that the Greek Septuagint translation contains many errors. That being the case, their choice of that Greek word may have been an incorrect one.
does this help? Naos CAN mean the whole temple (not just the inner courtyard) according to the Watchtower:
Insight 1988 page 860
The Greek term na·os' is used in a broad sense to stand for the entire temple complex (Joh 2:20) or for the central edifice, with its Holy and Most Holy compartments separated by the curtain. (Mt 27:51) When Zechariah, for instance, went "into the sanctuary" to offer incense, he entered the Holy, for it was there that the altar of incense was located.-Lu 1:9-11.
Insight page 1076
The Greek hi·e·ron' and na·os' are both rendered "temple" and The Greek hi·e·ron' and na·os' are both rendered "temple" and may refer to the entire temple complex or to its central edifice; na·os', meaning "sanctuary" or "divine habitation (dwelling)," at times refers specifically to the sacred inner rooms of the temple.
I guess according to the Watchtower, naos COULD mean the whole temple, or it COULD mean the inner courtyard; but it NEVER means the outer courtyards. Unless of course they say it does against their own literature.
If the great crowd is in the naos, then they are serving in the WHOLE temple or the INNER temple.
All the other translations I looked at simply say temple. This is a correct interpretation. To try and say inner or outer or the whole temple would be adding or taking away from the Scriptures.
Although I saw online soemwhere that Jesus threw the moneychangers out of the naos. This had to be the OUTER courtyard, if I recall, as Jesus was a descendant of Judah on both sides of his family, and only descendants of Levi (Levites) were allowed in the inner temple, the holiest, and then only the Levite Priest at that.
So now we have naos referring to :
1) the WHOLE temple
2) the OUTER temple
3) the INNER temple.
also, the word naos is used to refer to spiritual temple, for Paul refers to the word Naos and says the Christians are Naos, or will be naos.
4) a spiritual condition.
Dang those Greeks...
If you need the specific scriptures, holler. When do you need all this by?
I'm a little slow on the uptake. I'm trying to guess what point you are trying to make...
A case CAN be made that the 'great crowd without number' IS serving in heaven based on the word NAOS meaning inner courtyard in the OLD TESTAMENT Greek. (remember King somebody or other--Zechariah or Zacharia--offered incense in the naos and was punished for it because it was the inner temple that only Levites could go).
A case CAN be made that 'great crowd without number' IS NOT serving in heaven based on the word NAOS as used when Jesus threw the moneychangers out of the temple, which had to have been the outer courtyard.
A case CAN be made that 'great crowd without number' IS NOT serving in heaven based on the usage of the word Naos by Jesus as referring to his body.
A case CAN be made that 'great crowd without number' IS serving in heaven by virtue of Paul and John the Revelator also used Naos this way, not referring to a building at all, but apparently something to do with the spirit realm. The Watchtower will counter by saying that ALL Christians were anointed with a heavenly hope in those days.
Look up Isaiah 66:6 in Strong's Concordance. It will give you the Hebrew word that was translated to Naos in the Septuagent. Then cross compare the Hebrew word and get a sense of its original meaning. Also check several Bible Commentaries and and Theological dictionaries to get some additional discussion.
You can find all these on line, or if you wish I can send a few links to help out.
The question does not make a lot of sense to me in view of the current controversy over whether or not the "great crowd" is located in the "naos" or the "hieron."
Isaiah 66:6 reads: "A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple [LXX - naos], a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies." Regardless of the historical or prophetic context of this statement, it is Jehovah's voice that comes from the temple. Wouldn't Jehovah's presence be expected to be represented in the Most Holy, and therefore in the naos? This has nothing to do with where the worshippers are located in the temple.
>The question does not make a lot of sense to me in view of the current controversy over whether or not the "great crowd" is located in the "naos" or the "hieron."<
I think as I recall, Watchtower tries to say the 'great crowd without number' has to be on earth becasue of this verse, becasue 'naos'means the temple of God. I'm still trying to research the history of this doctrine.
I agree, it's stupid too. And not just becasue naos has at least five different meanings....I mean, what does Isa 66:6 got to do with the great crowd?
Nuttin' honey...
I have nothing to add here i just wanted to say I hope you guys keep this going a bit farther I would like to read more of what you come up with.
I don't understand what good using the Septuagint is when we have access to the original Hebrew scriptures. Are we to take more stock in a copy of something than what it is translated from?
I digress, I took Amazing's advice and looked up Isaiah 66:6's "Temple" in my Strongs Concordance and found the Hebrew word to be heykal (pr. hay-kal). The definition is as follows:
-a large public building, such as a palace or temple.
....don't really know why I'm bothering to responding here....
Since this particular argument was abandoned by the WTB&TS/CCJW this year, (See the May 1, 2002 issue of The Watchtower pages 30,31 (Point 5)) it hardly requires refutation.
However even if this wasn't the case, the argument is incomplete and wouldn't have required a response anyway.
Isaiah 66:6 in the Septuagint reads in part:
Phone krauges ek toleos, phone ek naou, phone Kuriou....As you can see, an ablative use of the word naos which we would translate as "A voice from the temple."
As you can also see, and as Justin has already pointed out, the unadorned phrase does not tell us exactly where in the temple the voice emanates from. It just as well could have been from the Sanctuary as anyplace else.
Therefore it does absolutely nothing to either prove or disprove whether the term naos is inclusive or exclusive of any particular temple area
Tom
