How to get someone out?

by Hyghlandyr 20 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  TheStar

  I'm already sleeping with him butalbee and I can't kill him, he's my husband... hehe
  Got anything else?

  I always enjoy reading your posts by the way, you help me smile everyday. Just thought I'd let you know.
• 

  detective

  I also want to mention Steven Hassan's second book "Releasing the Bonds: Empowering people to think for themselves". Lots of suggestions in that book!
• 

  butalbee

  Well, that is a predicament, then...

  The Star:
• 

  Hyghlandyr

  Thanks for the suggestions, and links...and for those of you who have emailed me as well. To the fella who asked if I was looking for specific links, yes, and I appreciate those that were sent I will look them up in a bit (after I poop and bathe). Why specific links? Well there is a lot of information on the ex/anti witness websites. Some of it is factual, some of it is not. The most accurate I have found was BeyondJW, and quotes.jehovahswitnesses.com which was the first one I ever read. It led to me questioning a lot...In the space of about three days I went from being a disgusted with myself non-practicing witness, to being an angry, full fledged ex.

  Now what I am specifically looking for? My wife is a witness, and to have her out would be nice. However, she fairly accepts my current life, my friends, and my actions. Not really bothering me about it. I tend to keep it low key with her now about my opinions. My friends, non-jw are certainly making more headway than I am, since I am of course the man of perdition to her, they are merely nonbelievers. The ultimate would be for her to be out, and then to claim she is bi,
  and then demand, that I take three or four more bi wives. But I am not deluding myself that that is going to happen.

  However, most specifically what I am interested in, is those who are dfed, getting to talk to their relatives again. All of the time the witnesses in the chat room tell us exes that JWs dont split up families. They will speak about a dfed relative of theirs and they still speak to them...Or that they were dfed and their parents spoke with them, and so on. Now we know this is not the general rule, but it does happen that family members will speak with dfed people. I have seen my wife do it, without batting an eye. That is why there is often a big bit of confusion between exes and actives, each thinking the other is lying, when both are speaking truthfully of their personal experiences.

  I have several friends who are dfed and their families will not speak to them at all. I have several other friends who are dfed and their families will speak to them. I suppose it is a matter of family dynamics perhaps. However, my goal is not to get people out of the JWs. Are they a cult? Sure, but no more damaging or destructive than the rest of the christian cults. I personally would not object if christianity, along with all of its repugnancies were simply removed from the planet. However it is not for me to tell someone to stop being deluded. Christians, including JWs, may continue, it really is not a big deal to me. What I am interested in is a method, and no method is surefire, to open the minds of those who are in the organization, enough that they will speak with their dfed relatives and perhaps friends, at least about mundane things in life. Which is all many of the dfed folks want. This dfing being a key point of contention for many of the exes.

  I have read for instance that rather than presenting jws with information on witnesses, some have instead done so on religions like mormons, or moonies. Pointing out that the moonies call themselves "the truth" as an example. Some perhaps not even having ex witnesses talk to the witness but ex moonies, who are unaware of JW doctrine entirely. Yes I know that the witnesses will reject any information that is anti-witness...but it is also true that some eventually do break through, and it is different for each one. The witnesses use proven psychological techniques to manipulate their followers, which techniques are used the world over in sales, the military, religion, nationalism and so forth. They are reasonably skilled at the methods because they are unaware that they are using them, thinking them merely to be teaching methods. So then it cannot be that complicated with some forethought and some joining together, perhaps with other groups, of exes, to use similar techniques on the witnesses themselves, except with accurate information instead of
  dogma and religion.

  For me I became an ex when I realized one thing. They had lied about their former claims. It wasnt doctrine, or the bible or so on. Merely the fact that they claimed they had never said ought about 1975, or 1914. And then I read with my own eyes in their own books that they had. Why would a religion of truth, from the god of truth need to lie? As a sidenote this is why I have rejected christianity, both because of the lies contained in the bible and the lies told by every christian group from chirstianity's foundations until now.

  So for instance one friend of mine is dfed and cannot talk to her daughters for nearly two decades. She is a dear person to me. Seeing her pain grieves me. If it were me, I am a cold hearted, second generation, bastard. I would have simply cut them out of my thoughts, and of story. For those who think I can't, well I have done so in the past in regards to others that have abused me, my father, my mother, and former friends. So yes, I can do it. Not all can. So then I suggest simply going back, getting reinstated, faking it and screw the need to be 'honest'. However not all can do that either. I could without batting an eye.

  Now then how to help her? And others like her? A network perhaps? Join with former mormons, muslims, moonies, christians, catholics, and whatever? To somehow have a party that really isnt connected to the situation, gradually present information to the person? Perhaps mailers as if they were business flyers? Or conversations at work?

  Obviously we are talking something a bit more complicated than just getting a relative out that is speaking to us. How to deal with the one that is not? That I suppose I should have thrust at the beginning of this entire thread.

  So hopefully now you all see a bit more of my predicament so to speak, it is personal because it is a friend of mine that I wish to help. I will read all of the links that you all provided and then will respond individually in a while..thank you again in advance.
• 

  Cygnus

  Hygh,

  Next time I am sober when in the chat room let's talk about this. You seem to be taking this very seriously, so it is evidently very important to you. You already know it good detail my experience, but maybe I could still help. AND, you should definitely get Stafford's new book. If you can't, I will send you a copy.
• 

  Yadira Angelini

  Hyghlandyr, you said:
  "So for instance one friend of mine is dfed and cannot talk to her daughters for nearly two decades. She is a dear person to me. Seeing her pain grieves me. If it were me, I am a cold hearted, second generation, bastard. I would have simply cut them out of my thoughts, and of story. For those who think I can't, well I have done so in the past in regards to others that have abused me, my father, my mother, and former friens".

  Guess what? I like that! I wish I can have the courage to tell my JWs dauhgter that until she stops shunnig her other sister who have left the org... I will shun her the same... and from then on would like to get her out of my life... Instead, I'm playing Mrs. Nice mom... uuuggghhh!!! So, in my opinion, maybe you are the one who came out with the best answer on your own thread. (How ironic). Instead, I'm looking for a recipe that works, and nothing ever does. I consider some of the advises here very good, thouhg, but I wish I could have the heart of a man... at least, yours, Hyghlandyr!

  I will be looking for your threads in the future.

  Yadira
• 

  bluesapphire

  Mom, if you did that, she would view it as "persecution" and it would push her more deeply into the cult.

  Just play it safe for now. Win her trust. Keep her close to you as your daughter.

  Or you can tell her that you've thought about "shunning her until she stops shunning me" but that you decided that it was unChristian to do that and you want to please God even if she isn't. That'll get her goad since she thinks she is.
• 

  Hyghlandyr

  Cygnus, Yes it is very important to me and I am taking it seriously. I have been thinking a lot about it in the past months. Witnesses, ex witnesses, often talk with me in pm about things, that they cant say in public for fear of being judged, either by the exes for 'support' that cult, or to elders for fear of dfing. In any case I'll discuss it with you when we are together.

  Yadira, it is not courage. I just simply dont give a damn about others opinions of me. Even close friends and people I care about, if they wish to abuse, well f...ck them. Ever since I was a child I was like this. I have buck teeth, and I remember in class one time when I was a child several students were mocking me, including a girl who also had buck teeth. They pointed this out to her. Her response was "well mine are not as big as his." And then she became their target.

  In addition to this, when I was a child, my mother took up with an escaped convict. So we were on the road all the time. Relationships thus became fluid. People that I liked I would be with for a short time then on to the next town. So I am not the sort that thinks relationships must be permanent, even relationships that are going well end, hopefully WHILE they are going well. Rather than when they turn bitter.

  So life for me is just this way. I take it as it comes, and spend 80% of my time sitting on this couch in chat rooms, blisful. (that may be reduced down to say 50% for a time, but if I get my cult going soon it might increase to 99.87%, minus of course the times I am pooping.)

  As far as dfing, the thing of shunning those shunning me is what I would do if I considered it abuse. That is to say abuse of me. Obviously some who are bothered by shunning are abused by it. But I wouldnt be bothered because I could care less whether these people, or any specific person associates with me or not. Nevertheless, because of the comdedic potential, I would do the opposite, and I informed the elders of this when they came here to see if I really was an apostate. After they realized that their rules, stated boldly on the website, forbade them dfing me since I am no longer a member, they kept asking me if I wanted to DA myself, to which I said, I am no longer a member I dont need to DA.

  Nevertheless I told them that of course I could not prevent them from dfing me as it was their decision whether or not to break the rules. but if they chose to break the rules, it would merely be a pyric victory. And I would show up at every meeting. Now we know, how uncomfortable people are at a meeting when a disfellowshipped person is there. But not only would I show up, but I would sit right up front. I would also sing the songs the loudest, as I used to do when I was active. (I am not a good singer but I am a former pentacostal, before converting to JWism, and pentacostals sing loud and bold. When various brothers, including elders would complain to me, I merely pointed out that the bible says make a joyful shout to jehovah, and if the other members of the congregation did so as well, they would be unable to hear my singing) I also said to the elders that I would greet everyone that came in, witness or not, I would participate in conversations, I would not sit in the back of the hall, nor would I be quiet, and while this would bother the witnesses, the non-witnesses would be generally confused when their study conductors would tell them to shun me, because I am a jovial person...

  So the point is, that in regards to us personally, we have many options if we are dfed. We can fake it and go back. We can go back, not for the purpose of getting back but for fun sake, we can leave them entirely and df them from our lives, we can change our identities and never be heard from again...the list goes on. As I see the situation it all comes down to just refusing to be abused in any manner. Unfortunately everyone does not have this kind of lax additude in response to others actions to them. So it is for them that I am thinking, HOW can we act to assist them, as a unified group, believer and unbeliever alike.
• 

  Mindchild

  I thought I would add something to this discussion that is a bit unusual but still relevant to the idea of getting someone out. Many years ago, country folk found a homemade cure for tapeworms. Often, farm kids used to get tapeworms. The home remedy was pretty simple, and involved giving a mild poison to the kid and sitting him down on a bucket of luke-warm water.

  The worm would try to exit the kid's body because of the chemical irritant but if the water was too cold, the worm would recoil and snap, leaving part of it inside the hosts body to grow into another adult. However, if the water temperature was just right, it faked out the worm into thinking it was either going into a new host or staying inside the same host.

  I was thinking that the way you approach a JW about the truth about the "truth" works a lot along the same lines. If you don't take the right steps to prepare a exit plan and don't have the right irritant, you are only just going to piss off the mental parasite that is infecting your loved one instead of getting rid of it. The water, or bait needs to be warm and friendly.

  Instead of approaching them confrontationally each and every time (sometimes this method works see previous discussions on this board about getting people out) you can take small steps to get across one point at a time (not too much at once) and let the poison have its effect. You need to have that exit plan in place to deal with the nasties that happen to people who try to leave Big Momma Parasite, and above all else be patient.

  Hope this was of some value.

  Skipper
• 

  Yadira Angelini

  Hyghlandyr,

  I don't know how to use the smiles faces... but I wish you have hear me laughing about your description of what you would prepared to act at the KH... if they would dfs you... I wish you would tell us what the elder say and do, how was the look on their faces??? But I don't want to get you out of the point you wanted from this thread...

  Thanks for responding... and I now understand where are you coming from. My post was worth your answer.

  Mindchild, I like your analogy; it makes sense; I think about it, but since I'm not a JW or exJW, it is better to keep my mouth shut and just love and be patient. Bluesapphire, I was tempted.... Ha?

  I write with Spanish accent, sorry,

  Yadira