"Sit at my right hand" - WHEN?

by EdenOne 20 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Bobcat
    Bobcat

    EdenOne:

    One of the problems I see is that you are relying on a defective rendition of Revelation 1:10

    (Revelation 1:10 NWT) . . .By inspiration I came to be in the Lord's day. . .

    In the Greek text the verb "came to be" occurs before "in spirit" (egenomen en pnuemati, literally "I became in spirit")

    Compare this with the construction at Revelation 4:2, which is exactly the same:

    (Revelation 4:2 NWT) . . .After these things I immediately came to be in [the power of the] spirit. . .

    The Greek text reads, eutheos egenomen en pnuemati or "immediately I became in spirit." The "I became in spirit" part is exactly the same as in Revelation 1:10.

    In Revelation 4:2, the NWT renders the phrase literally. But in 1:10, the NWT moves the verb to before "the Lord's day."

    This little rewrite is done by the NWT to support doctrinal assertions. The NWT is saying that, 'while John was inspired, he came to be transported to the Lord's day (or "the last days" is how the WT defines the phrase).

    The Greek text is saying that, 'it happened to be the Lord's day, and on that day John came to be in inspired.'

    Concerning "the Lord's day," the BECNT-Revelation commentary (Grant R. Osborne, p.83) says:

    Most likely this phrase refers to Sunday [i.e. the first day of the week - Bobcat], chosen by the early church on the basis of the resurrection as the day of worship. Stott (73-74) argues that kuriake was originally associated with the resurrection and then the eschatalogical triumph of the Lord of lords and thereby came to be used of the "Lord's Day." It is likely that the Jewish-Christian church worshiped in the synagogueson the Jewish Sabbath and in their own assemblies from the earliest times on Sunday, celebrating the Eucharist and worshiping Christ together (cf. Acts 2:42). While this is the first appearance of "the Lord's Day" as a technical term for Sunday worship, it became a common term for such in the second century. John was worshiping on that day and received this vision.

    The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia also mentions that by c.150 AD this term was commonly used for the first day of the week. (Vol III, pp. 158-60)

    Please don't take this as a complaint. I appreciate your efforts at understanding the subject.

    Take Care

  • Phizzy
    Phizzy

    Of course, if we could prove that the Psalm was not written by David, as many attributed to him were not, then we would have a case for a very different interpretation of Psalm110v1.

    No such proof seems to exist, but maybe one day it will surface, who knows? so many of the proofs of Jesus' messiahship are "forced" in the NT, many not being actually messianic in the O.T original, but made to look that way by "Matthew" and the other Gospel writers.

  • The Searcher
    The Searcher

    @ EDEN 1

    Just a little point which you make on your website which I suggest needs re-wording.

    Describing the WTBTS you say this - "despite playing an undeniably relevant - and commendable - role in relentlessly promoting important Christian truths, and providing free Bible education to millions around the globe."

    To be more precise, the WTBTS direct its members to provide everything for free - donations, labour, time, car fuel, accommodation, et al. In reality, everything is provided by our worldwide brotherhood, not by the Org which merely collects and uses the donated resources to gamble in hedge funds and real estate deals. (its other functions have apparently become less important)

    Let's give praise to the real sources of Christian goodness - not to those who control the gifts!

  • bjc2read
    bjc2read

    EdenOne,

    Question:

    Given the information you have presented on your website, how do you harmonize the prophecy of Daniel 7:11-14 which shows at a special time in human history, exactly when the "Son of Man" is given a worldwide kingship and rulership by Jehovah Himself, the actual presence of the wicked "Small Horn" (and 4th fearsome "beastly" governmental powers, per vs. 7) are active, and are carrying out "his" or "their" vicious "activity" and destruction upon the "holy ones" who are to finally take possession of the "kingdom of God," all during this exact same time period of the crowning and enthroning of God's designated king?

    Additionally, does not verses 11, 12 of Daniel 7th chapter also show this wicked "Small Horn" (along with other "rulerships" too) is completely destroyed, completely removed from God's sight, and all of this during this exact same time as the enthronement of the "Son of Man"? Does not the context itself of this prophecy, Daniel chapter 7, show all of these things? How do you explain such a time period? (Compare Daniel 7:20-22.)

    BTW, don't get me wrong, I don't believe in the 1914 "garbage" of the Watchtower Society/JWs either.

    But, I do believe there is a very, easy scriptural way to resolve this question, though.

    ... thanks in advance for your response.

    bjc2read

  • EdenOne
    EdenOne

    Bobcat,

    essentially we agree. When John received the Revelation, the "Lord's Day" had already started. It started either a) at his birth; b) at his baptism; c) after his resurrection; d) when he ascended to heavens; e) When he was made King (sometime in the first century). In any case, NOT in 1914.

    Eden

  • EdenOne
    EdenOne

    The Searcher

    Fair point. I edited it.

    Eden

  • EdenOne
    EdenOne

    bjc2read

    Consider these three details:

    a) The fourth beast is slained BEFORE the "Son of Man" is presented before the Ancient of Days (7:11-13);

    b) The first three beasts survive "for a season and time" the demise of the fourth beast, albeit without their former authority. (Daniel 7:11, 12)

    c) Nowhere in the text is said that is the "Son of Man" that executes juddgement upon this fourth beast (Daniel 7:26); Actually, his beligerance is against the "Most High" (God) and the "saints of the Most High" (the Jews), NOT against the "Son of Man" (Daniel 7:25)

    In view of the above, consider the following possibility:

    The "fourth beast" is the Seleucian Empire (Syria) that caused great tribulation to the "saints of the Most High" (the Jews) over a period of time that covers 10 Kings, from Antiochus III The Great (that conquered the province of Coele-Syria - that included Jerusalem - for the first time to the Seleucian Empire), until Antiochus VII Sidetes, the last Seleucian King to wage war against Jerusalem, ending the "great tribulation" over the Jews under the Syrians.

    The 10 horns (Kings) would be:

    Antiochus III The Great > Seleucus IV Filopater > Antiochus IV Epiphanes > Antiochus V Eupator > Demetrius I Soter > Alexander I Balas > Demetrius II Nicator > Antiochus VI Dionysius > Diodotus Tryphon >Antiochus VII Sidetes.

    Among these 10, one king (horn) in particular became prominent in his war against the "saints of the Most Holy": Antiochus IV Epiphanes, who caused massive destruction and killings in Jerusalem, outlawd the Jewish religious practice and traditions, dessacrated the second temple in Jerusalem, even interrupting the services in the temple until the re-dedication of the temple 3 1/2 years later (coincident with Daniel 7:25)

    Which three horns (Kings) Antiochus defeated? They may refer to the three high priests of Israel (Onias III, Jasan, Manelaus) that were his contemporaries and where "plucked" from their office as High Priests during the reign of Antiochus IV.

    Eden

  • EdenOne
    EdenOne

    Also, a possible interpretation for the three beasts of Daniel 7:

    These animals were political powers that ruled over the territory of the "saints of the Most High", Jerusalem, from the day when this prophecy was uttered, that is, " In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon" (Daniel 7:1) The four beasts rise from "the great sea", the Mediterranean - therefore, these are empires whose territories confronted the shores of the Mediterranean sea. (7:1, 2)

    Therefore, the first beast is the Neo-Babylonean Empire. Its wings are "plucked out" and its tamed down when the Persians conquer Babylon.

    The Second Beast, the Bear-like beast that "was raised on one of his sides" (7:5) is the Medo-Persian empire, with the Persian side being more prominent.

    The Third Beast is the Macedonian Empire, whose "body" was Alexander the Great, and the four "heads" are the four kingdoms that splintered from the Greek Macedonian Empire, under four former generals of Alexander: The Ptolomaic Egypt; The Seleucian Syria; The Kingdom of Pergamon; The Kingdom of Macedonia

    The Fourth Beast, the most terrifying one (because it was the one that would bring the "great tribulation" over the "saints of the Most Holy") is, like I said abefore, the Seleucian Syrian Empire, in particular, the 10 kings from Antiochus III The Great and Antiochus VII Sidetes.

    Eden

  • EdenOne
    EdenOne

    The "three ribs" between the teeh of the [Medo-Persian] Third Beast may well be the three main kingdoms conquered and subdued by the founder of the Medo-Persian empire, Cyrus, The Great: Elam (Capital: Susa); Neo-Babylonian (Capital: Babylon); Lydian (Capital: Sardis).

    The three beasts outlive the slain of the fourth beast "for a season and a time", but without significant power - Babylon, Persia and Macedonia outilved the Seleucian Empire for a short time until they were finally absorbed by the Roman Empire.

    Eden

  • Larsinger58
    Larsinger58

    Very insightful. Thanks for posting your reflections. I hope you don't mind my sharing a few thoughts of my as I reflected on this.

    For one, I find it interesting that you loop "death" as part of the enemies that might be subjected to Christ as his footstool. I think in general, even by the WTS, the specific enemies in reference are those still in heaven, meaning Satan and his rebel angels. They remain in heaven until they are cast out of heaven, but specifically down to the earth, which is called God's "footstool':

    Isaiah 66:1 "...“The heavens are my throne, and the earth is my footstool."

    So the concept of death being a primary reference to Christ's enemy would be secondary to the temporary time Christ's enemies are in heaven and would then be cast out down to the earth at which point they would become his footstool.

    So in general, the date of the second coming would tend to date this event as Satan was not cast out of heaven until the time just before the second coming. Reflective of this is Revelation 12 where you see the birth of the messiah occurring just after Satan has been cast down to the earth.

    Again, I think death, though called mankind's last enemy is conceptual and I don't think would be considered as part of this timetable, not as much as when Satan becomes the footstool of those in heaven. Furthermore, death is not destroyed and cast into the lake of fire until after the second resurrection which occurs after the millennium and thus after the second coming.

    So in general, I tend to think more emphasis should be placed on Satan existing in heaven for the period while Christ is sitting (or standing) at the right hand of God. This brings up in what way would Christ no longer be at the right hand of God after Satan is cast ouf o hevean? Well, since Christ must return to the earth almost at the same time Satan is kicked out of heaven, it wouldn't seem he is literally at the right hand of God any more, since he, himself would also be in the earth, ruling admist his enemies.

    So one interpretation of this is that Christ, standing or sitting at the right hand of God, representing Christ existing in heaven until the second coming, when Satan is cast down to the earth, would also end his sitting at God's right hand, since Christ himself would then leave heaven and return to the earth. So the concept of "until" is not contradicted here. That is, Christ remains in heaven "until" Satan leaves heaven, at which time he himself also leaves heaven and thus is no longer at the right hand of God. Even so, he rules as king on the earth "in the midst of his enemies" at this time, until Satan is cast into the abyss and the 1000-year reign occurs.

    Psalm 110: "“Go subduing in the midst of your enemies.”

    So what I'm now getting from this reference is that the chronology of Christ being at God's right hand, sitting or standing, is a reference to his waiting in heaven "until" Satan is cast down to the earth, becoming his footstool. But then Christ himself returns at this time, leaving God's side and then rules and goes subduing in the midst of his enemies, meaning in the midst of Satan and his demon followers and their earthly counterparts until Satan and the demons are cast into the abyss during the 1000 years. That is, it could not be said that Christ is still literally at the right hand of God once he returns to the earth to rule in the midst of his enemies who have become his "footstool" symbolically, since they are cast down to the earth and excluded from heaven. In the meantime, the ouster of Satan has created a place for those who would replace Satan and the demon angels. Christ spoke of creating a place in heaven for them but only after Satan has been cast out. So, again, you have a reference to Satan being cast out in connection with the second coming. What Christ does after his return is sends his angels out to gather and seal the elect into their heavenly seats, which is something that occurs after the second coming occurs.

    As well, death is mankind's enemy that will one day be done away with after Judgment Day, which occurs after the millennium. But it can also be said in Christ's case in particular that he conquered death after his resurrection and thus death to Christ himself was no longer an enemy or threat to him personally. So, again, I would see the concept of specifically focussing on death as part of this reference a little stretched, particularly when the chronology of when Christ no longer is at the right hand of God is linked to his enemies becoming his "footstool" which can be a specific reference to his enemies being cast down to the earth since the earth is called God's footstool, specifically.

    So in conclusion, I come away with the most generic reference here being that Christ is simply to remain in heaven until Satan leaves heaven, at which time he himself no longer dwells in heaven either. That is, Christ is at God's right hand, sitting or standing, and thus in heaven, until Satan is cast out of heaven and down to the earth. But that also ends Christ being in heaven at God's right hand as well, since he must return to the earth at this same time. In other words, this passage basically is recognizing that Christ will remain in heaven until Satan is cast out of heaven, at which time Christ will leave God's right hand and return to the earth. That is, Christ's stint at the right hand of God ends when Satan is cast out of heaven and down to the earth.

    So if you deemphasize other than the chronology of Satan being cast down to the earth in reference to "sit at my right hand until..." then it means God is simply telling Christ that he will be up in heaven at God's right hand until Satan is cast down to the earth, at which time he will return to the earth. In other words, it is Jehovah telling Christ, to remain in heaven with him for the period of time prior to the second coming when Satan will be cast out of heaven. That is, Christ would not return to the earth but remain in heaven until Satan is cast out. But then after that, he himself would leave heaven and return to the earth.

    OR... this is Jehovah telling Jesus, "You can stay up here with me at my right hand until we kick Satan out of heaven. Then, of course, you will return to the earth and rule admist your enemies for a while until Armageddon. At that time, we'll abyss Satan and you will remain in the earth to rule for 1000 years. Satan will be let loose for a short while and then be destroyed in the lake of fire. Then we will conduct Judgment Day where all the dead will return from the graves and be granted life or death. Then after the last wicked person is cast into the lake of fire and all other righteous ones are granted eternal life, then death itself will be destroyed, man's last enemy. Then after that, you and the bride class, who are also ruling with you on the earth, will be raptured up to heaven, all being changed in the twinkling of an eye, becoming glorious spirit beings."

    Thanks, again, for reflecting on this. A secondary conclusion I also arrived at from reviewing this, is that "sitting" or "standing" at the right hand of God is not specific. It doesn't seem significant to the overall idea that he is simply up in heaven at this time, vs. being down on the earth. In the most generic sense, this is simply confirming Christ will be up in heaven at God's right hand until the second coming when after Satan is cast out, Christ himself will leave God's right hand and return to the earth.

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