What's in a name? - Israel wasn't for Yaweh !

by snare&racket 26 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  fiddler

  I agree that the story of Moses in the Bible is a mish mash of older stories that were already in the Egyptian tradition (and other ancient traditions like that of King Sargon). The story of the baby being drawn from the rushes by a princess (or goddess) for instance was already around.

  The family of Pharaohs of the line of Thutmoses, i.e. of King Tut fame, were real people in history their mummy's being on display to see. I've always found the Thutmoses and Moses name similarities curious. One family member of that line, Akhenaten (who's mummy has never been found.........he's referred to as the heretic Pharaoh) introduced a mono theistic religion based on sun worship (the At en). Of his mummified family members that have been found, one of interest is his grandfather Yuya. Although not of royal origins but married to one of the Tutankhamen line, he was buried in royal tombs AND FOUND! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuya It Author Ahmed Osman wrote a compelling book suggesting that Yuya was indeed Joseph of the Bible. I really enjoyed reading that book Hebrew Pharaohsof Egypt although not agreeing with all his ideas.....still compelling.

  (There was no correlation made with the Ya in Yu-ya's named but I noted it.)

  Both Yuya and Joseph of the Bible were said to be masters of the chariots and 'Father to a pharoah'............coincidence? Maybe. The main point that detractors made about this idea is that the Bible says that Joseph's remains were exhumed and returned to the land of his forefathers and Yuya was found in Egypt. Well................I say the writer of that little piece of fiction hardly imagined that the mummy might be found 3,000 years later in Egypt!

  So, if after several hundred years have gone by and some old Jewish older man at the gates wants to tell a fable to establish some point to his listeners of interconnectedness or whatever...........he only needs a general framework and from there weaves the tale. Those Bible writers I'm pretty sure had no thoughts whatsoever about who might be reading or telling the tales 3,000 years later.

  Even if Yuya was not Joseph, the story of his and his wive Tuya's discovery is fascinating!

  
• 

  mP

  fiddler:

  The jewish Bible stole the glory of Egypt and relocated the characters to Israel. THe real Solomon and David were Egyptian Pharoahs who really were great. Amenhotep iii built the largest temple complex even today in Karnak. Solomon built a pissy nothing in Jersualem.
• 

  LV101

  snare --- now don't laugh but I recall reading in one of watchtowers or awakes that some ancient stone was found in cave (by the sea) reading something about David, King of Israel. This was about 5-6 yrs. ago when I read about. wish i would have saved it because it had all these facts proving the Bible.
• 

  mP

  LV101

  There was a tablet found a few years ago that says "house of David". THe prblem is thats all it says. It doesnt prove much except that David existed.
• 

  LV101

  mP--- thanks for the correction and you are right -- the second I sent I was trying to recall whether the word "king" was part of the inscription. Thanks. It does prove he existed.

  Wasn't YHWH one of the 70 sons of El (just read above he came from Edom -- that's interesting) and thought I just read on here that YHWH and El are the same but can't find it now/duh.

  Great video is by the Bible scholar, Dr. Francesca Stavrakopoulou, (the one about did God have a wife) and I need to watch again. This topic is so interesting. She indicates the Israelites were polytheistic and they weren't monotheistic until the scribes invented it that way after they were taken into bondage --- something like that.

  Have had a tad of time last two eves to read alittle here.
• 

  mP

  @LV101

  Perhaps the easiest way to answer the question is that the jews were just like their neighbours. The Romans accepted Jupiter was the same as the Greek Zeus. THe Jews also had had pantheons of Gods and sons of Gods. The Gods had different names in different lands but they were basically the same in the end. They were simply reprseentations of the great forces in nature, like the Sun, Wind, Water and so on.

  The Bible has many stories of Jehovah fighting Leviathan, but of course bible readers never tell you who or what Leviathan was. If Jehovah was all powerful it sounds mighty stupid that he would be fighting a sea snake or monster no matter how big it was. However if you read stories like those of the Greek gods its easy to see just how similar these stories are.

  The Bible is littered with many jewish gods, however most of the time they are prsented as mortals. Samson means sun and most of the story is easily shown to be solar symbology. HIs strength is of course his long hair, jut like the sun whose rays are long when its strong and short when it dies in winter. The story of the 300 foxes running around bruning the fields of the Philistines of course is utter nonsense, nobody would use such an ineffective cruel device to destroy the fields of their enemy. The two pillars symbolist the death of the sun. The ancient world the pillars of hercules were in the far west and they believed the sun passed them on its way to death and night. We of course know of Gibraltar and the two pillars of the story are actually these.
• 

  Vidqun

  You just make shit up. El was before Yaweh, long before. El and Yaweh is the same person. Lie to yourself all you want, have fun explaining to yourself how Jehovah (lol) was content with his people calling themselves Isa-EL-ites, or his promised land Isra-EL.

  Let’s first look at the etymology of the name “Israel.” It is by no means a foregone conclusion as your source contends. Note the first two has to do with “fighting.”

  “The etymology of the name “Israel” has not been explained satisfactorily.”

  “This translation of the verbal element is based entirely on the popular etymologies cited, and is therefore by no means compelling. This obvious fact has led over the years to a wealth of proposed interpretations” (TDOT, vol. VI, pp. 399, 400).

  HALOT gives five choices: a) to fight against Gn 32 29 Hos 12 4f ; b) same derivation but God as sbj., “El fights”, so Eissfeldt OLZ 58:331; c) to rule, prove oneself, be ruler (Noth 207ff); d) Arb. to shine (HBauer ZAW 51:83); e)to heal (Albright JBL 46:165ff.; 63:221 96 ) .

  Let’s go to your second source Mark S. Smith: He makes a statement: “The original god of Israel was El.” He continues: “This reconstruction may be inferred from two pieces of information. First, the name Israel is not a Yahwistic name, but an El name…” “Second, Genesis 49:24-25 presents a series of El epithets separate from the mention of Yahweh in verse 18…”

  So the evidence is quite flimsy. And do we know for certain who borrowed from whom? Did the writer borrow from the priests of Ugarit or vice versa?

  Can you show ONE reference to what you said, one paper? One scholar? One piece of evidence...... just one? JUST ONE ?

  While we are dealing with Mark S. Smith, do me a favor and get his book, The Origins of Biblical Monotheism. Israel’s Polytheistic Background and the Ugaritic Texts. It will acquaint you with the origin and development of monotheism in Israel. You will find “Mosaic Monotheism” is discussed on pp. 150-151.
• 

  mP

  Vid:

  How do you explain its "Is Ra EL" and not "Is Ra Jah" ?

  Read Ex 3 it tells you that Abraham worshipped .... Let the Bible tell you for itself.
• 

  Vidqun

  mP, I have a book called "Israelite Religions" by Richard S. Hess, a professor of OT Studies and acclaimed archaeologist. The title of the book explains it all. Israel was never a one religion state. It had a Yahwistic state religion at some stage, but the other religions were never completely suppressed, in fact during certain times they would flourish. This is clear from the archaeological evidence and the Bible itself. Israel's name (= contenders with El) says it all, whereas the name "Judah" (= yehudah: yehu + ydh > praise to YHWH) is a theophoric compound name. They lived up to their name and proved to be more faithful.

  Back to Snare, he asserts,

  There is NO evidence of any Moses EVER existing. So no scholar has ever, ever, ever, ever, EVER had evidence for that. A biblical or christian scholar MAY hypothesise that based on the embarassment that El was worshipped and all of the sudden is compelled to appease the broken biblical narrative. Of course it doesnt explain who Adam, Eve, Enoch, Noah etc worshiped if YHWH was not invented until Moses. But then again, we know gods, cities, nations, peoples, religion etc existed before the biblical adam... so it's a mute point.

  “In view of the bibliography cited [about four pages], it should come as no surprise that scholars have widely differing views concerning Moses. There is Martin Noth’s Moses, of whom nothing is known except the site of his burial outside Israel. There is Julius Wellhausen’s Moses, the liberator who led the Israelites to the oasis of Kadesh. There are Moses the priest of Eduard Meyer, Moses the prophet of André Neher and Martin Buber, Moses the Egyptian of Sigmund Freud and A. Slosman, Moses the lawgiver of Jewish tradition, Moses the theologian of the Koran, Moses the Mystic of Gregory of Nyssa, and many more” (TDOT, vol. IX, pp. 28-32).

  Most are pro-Moses. These judge him according to his legacy. Very few of these believe him to be a figment of an overactive Jewish imagination. There seems to be a few scholars that was “anti-Moses” but these are clearly in the minority.
• 

  LV101

  mP --- thank you for info. I regret not studying mythology other than a summer school course --- way too long ago. Think I will enroll in an Egyptian history course. These topics are so interesting.