Kermit Gosnell, MD.

by Glander 65 Replies latest social current

  • soontobe
    What does the American Dental Association have to say about Dentists raping their patients??? Have they taken a stand??

    Rape is not a dental procedure the American Dental Association has advocated should be legal.

    It violates the ADA's code of ethics.

    It is not even a dental procedure.

    PPP on the other hand not only defends the legality of late term abortions, including intact dilation and extraction, but also defends the legality of allowing babies born alive to be allowed to die. It has worked to try to make and keep late term abortions legal.

    Here's a PPP spokesperson in Florida, recently:

    Here's testimony of Anthony Levatino, MD, JD, former abortionist, before Congress last year on second trimester abortions:

    Imagine, if you can, that you are a pro-choice obstetrician/gynecologist like I once was.

    Your patient today is 24 weeks pregnant (LMP). At twenty-four weeks from last menstrual period, her uterus is two finger-breadths above the umbilicus. If you could see her baby, which is quite easy on an ultrasound, she would be as long as your hand plus a half, from the top of her head to the bottom of her rump, not counting the legs. Your patient has been feeling her baby kick for the last month or more, but now she is asleep on an operating room table and you are there to help her with her problem pregnancy.

    The first task is to remove the laminaria that had earlier been placed in the cervix, the opening to the uterus, to dilate it sufficiently to allow the procedure you are about to perform. With that accomplished, direct your attention to the surgical instruments arranged on a small table to your right. The first instrument you reach for is a 14-French suction catheter. It is clear plastic and about nine inches long. It has a bore through the center approximately ¾ of an inch in diameter. Picture yourself introducing this catheter through the cervix and instructing the circulating nurse to turn on the suction machine, which is connected through clear plastic tubing to the catheter. What you will see is a pale yellow fluid the looks a lot like urine coming through the catheter into a glass bottle on the suction machine. This is the amniotic fluid that surrounded the baby to protect her.

    With suction complete, look for your Sopher clamp. This instrument is about thirteen inches long and made of stainless steel. At the business end are located jaws about 2 inches long and about 1/2 an inch wide with rows of sharp ridges or teeth. This instrument is for grasping and crushing tissue. When it gets hold of something, it does not let go. A second trimester D&E abortion is a blind procedure. The baby can be in any orientation or position inside the uterus.

    Picture yourself reaching in with the Sopher clamp and grasping anything you can. At twenty four weeks gestation, the uterus is thin and soft so be careful not to perforate or puncture the walls. Once you have grasped something inside, squeeze on the clamp to set the jaws and pull hard – really hard. You feel something let go and out pops a fully formed leg about six inches long. Reach in again and grasp whatever you can. Set the jaw and pull really hard once again and out pops an arm about the same length. Reach in again and again with that clamp and tear out the spine, intestines, heart and lungs.

    The toughest part of a D&E abortion is extracting the baby’s head. The head of a baby that age is about the size of a large plum and is now free floating inside the uterine cavity. You can be pretty sure you have hold of it if the Sopher clamp is spread about as far as your fingers will allow. You know you have it right when you crush down on the clamp and see white gelatinous material coming through the cervix. That was the baby’s brains. You can then extractthe skull pieces. Many times a little face may come out and stare back at you.

    Congratulations! You have just successfully performed a second-trimester Suction D&E abortion.

    If you refuse to believe that this procedure inflicts severe pain on that unborn child, please think again.

  • james_woods
    But my first question, to James Woods. So you are going to set an arbitrary 4 months standard. What about the fetus at 3 months and 29 days? How can you differentiate?

    I think I made it clear that I do not like the compromise that I proposed in my original statement. I believe I made it clear that I do not LIKE abortion at all. But, it is a reality of 21st century North American life. and thus should be given attention and regulation by a sane society.

    However, it is perfectly clear that if we want to allow SOME abortion, but prevent very late term or even birthing abortions, some time interval must be presented. I arbitrarily chose four months.

    Perhaps other medical or ethical thinkers with more insight than I have would like to adjust that time span - it is not a primary issue with me. But some such time limit must obviously apply if we are to avoid the Gosnell style type of horrors. Medical experts would also say that this is an issue as well in the interest of the health and even life of the mothers.

  • james_woods

    BTW, Mamochan - who can really say if the term is 3 months 29 days or if it is 4 months 31 days? That is legalism personified.

    What I meant was that it should not be very late term abortion and such a law should leave no doubt about that.

  • BizzyBee

    Planned Parenthood has traditionally operated with the guideline of 16 weeks gestation until recently, when, for some reason they went to 19 weeks. Still.....that's far short of a viable pregnancy.

    Sorry, but no one has yet made the connection with PP and Gosnell. I am beginning to suspect (strongly) that this thread is just a blind for 'Obama derangement syndrome.' In which case, it has backfired. As usual.

    As for mamochan's excellent questions - I think the law can provide general guidelines, but many of these issues really should be left to a woman, her family and her doctor. And, rather than BS right-wing, fundamentalist abstinence education being taught in schools, we need better real-life, useful information in the curriculum.

  • ÁrbolesdeArabia

    Could you post some statistics with your comments Mamo?

    "My second question. This "doctor" was killing babies who were supposedly viable. What is viable has changed markedly in recent years. Yet, doctors are saving these supposedly viable babies and many end up severly disabled, with no quality of life, basically taxing the life out of the parents and placing a huge drain financially on society. "

    I am not one who likes to play with figures, I need some numbers from a reliable source telling me those babies would have no quality of life. Don't take this the wrong way, the only babies who might me serverly disabled are those who had a ice pick stuck through their skull from the procedure.

    Are you talking about botched abortions where the Doctor has chopped the babies head or stuck the knife through his/her neck and the mother delivers the baby? Where are you getting these numbers from?


    1,270 Babies Born Alive After Failed Abortions in the U.S.

    by Steven Ertelt | Tallahassee, FL | | 4/5/13 1:02 PM


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    A shocking figure from a hearing on a bill in Florida should capture the attention of people across the country: hundreds of babies are born alive following botched abortions every year.

    Most of the attention that has been focused on a controversial statement by a Planned Parenthood lobbyist has centered on the abortion business' opposition to a bill to require appropriate medical care for any baby who survive an abortion. But the state representative who sponsored the bill told members of the Florida committee that held a hearing on it a shocking number.

    Florida Rep. Cary Pigman, an emergency medicine physician and the sponsor of the Florida "born-alive" bill, says national data reveal that hundreds of babies die after failed abortions. His response to a question (beginning at about 2:30 in the below video) provides additional information on the situation.

    "We do have some sense in that with perinatal infant mortality data it is recorded," Rep. Pigman told legislators on the panel. "In 2010, there were 24,586 perinatal deaths in the United States. Perinatal defines as being from the 22nd week of gestation to seven days post delivery."

    "Those are all coded by international classification," he noted. Regarding babies who die after a botched abortion: "As of 2010, 1,270 infants were reported in that category - and I emphasize reported," Pigman explained.

    In other words, more than 1,200 babies died following a failed abortion and their whose deaths were reported as "mortality subsequent to an abortion." As the representative emphasized, those are only the number of reported deaths following botched abortions, and the actual figures could be higher.

    Those numbers follow an outcry in Canada where, last year, figures from Statistics Canada, a federal government agency, show 491 babies were born alive following botched abortions during the period from 2000-2009 and left to die afterwards.

    According to the numbers, "there were 491 abortions, of 20 weeks gestation and greater, that resulted in live births. This means that the aborted child died after it was born. These abortions are coded as P96.4 or 'Termination of pregnancy, affecting fetus and newborn'."

    P 96.4 is the same classification Rep. Pigman referred to in is testimony.

    The Born Alive Infants Protection Act in the United States, signed into law by pro-life President George W. Bush, protects such babies in the U.S. and it came into existence after pro-life nurse Jill Stanek noticed babies born alive and left to die at his Chicago-area hospital.

    This issue is still controversial given that pro-abortion President Barack Obama repeatedly failed to support the bill approved in the Illinois legislature to provide appropriate medical care and protection for such babies.


    Mary Spaulding Balch, J.D., director of the National Right to Life Office of State Legislation, says the issue is still a concern both in the U.S. and worldwide.

    Balch said a Feb. 23, 2012, article entitled "After Birth Abortion: Why Should the Baby Live?" promoting after-birth abortions and published in the international Journal of Medical Ethics shows where medical ethic is headed.

    "The fact that they put an article in this kind of a journal means the issue is on the rise," Balch said. "It used to be whispered. Now it's out there in black in white."

    In the Journal article, the authors argue that "killing a newborn should be permissible in all the cases where abortion is [permissible], including cases where the newborn is not disabled."

    States like Florida are looking at passing their own versions of the federal law to provide for better enforcement and oversight - also, babies have been left to die before at abortion clinics - such as this one in Florida

  • ÁrbolesdeArabia

    James when did you begin to think the babies inside a Mother's womb were no longer a human being? Was this part of the 1970s Enlightenment you experienced after you left the Organization? The 1970s Generation of Social Discombobulation, Vietnam War was over and everyone start's to get rich with the "Nifty Fifty Stocks" until the Interest Rates went Stratospherical in the 1979-1982. Milton Friedman needing the help of Paul Volcker and his Interest Cutting moves, remember James Gransville and his theory on Fed Policy

    I am reading a book on why the people who were Draft Age to 30 in 1970s ended up becoming a drift a sea, no real social struggles to embrace, just money and uncertainity with Geo-Politics. Kids had a strange disattachment with their parents for no real reasons, it was a time not of making sense of the world and fighting struggles like the kids of the 1950s-1960s with anti-War, movements for racial equality and the tail end of the Woman's Lib movement slowing down in the early 1970s. What great accomplishments did the kids and young adults of the 1970s accomplish other than social assimiliation?

    How has abortion helped the African American community in the United States? It's basically killing them off, as a percentage PP is causing Black Americans to have the lowest birth rate in history.

    Since we do not have a huge amount of data on surving botched babies costing the Government tons of money, should we throw out that argument out for lack of data?

  • james_woods
    James when did you begin to think the babies inside a Mother's womb were no longer a human being? Was this part of the 1970s Enlightenment you experienced after you left the Organization?

    I never began to think that - I still do not think that. However, the key aspect is viability, as debated above outside my answer.

    I want to make it clear again - I am personally opposed to abortion in almost all cases (except for life of mother, rape, etc...)

    However I am stating what I think is a realistic POLITICAL position on the topic - not a personal position, not a religious position.

    I do not think it is the business of the federal government to try to legislate morality or religion.

  • james_woods

    Further on Mamochans questions:

    My third, back to James. Yes. I agree religion needs to stay out. But how do you decide on the limits of the human rights?

    The classical answer is that your human rights stop when they obtrude on another person's human rights. Society (American Society) has generally agreed that abortion rights stop when the child becomes a viable living baby. I arbitrarily (and conservatively) therefore supported limiting abortion to less than four months (20 weeks approximately) for that reason.

    I'll toss in a fourth. Is it better to force a mother who desperately wants rid of that child to give birth or is it better to give her an out? I'm guessing many of this "doctors" patients were poor and unable to fathom raising a child.

    She should have that choice up to four monthis into the pregnancy, which is adequate time to make a decision.

    I am willing to encounter debate on the issue of four months to some flexibility - a few weeks sooner or later could be argued.

    Like I said, I don't like common abortions, but this is my compromise for American secular law on the subject. This is what I think the Republican Party should adopt as their platform on the subject as well.

  • BizzyBee

    Good answer, james. Couldn't agree more.

  • LisaRose

    I used to follow the dub reasoning that dictated there was absolutely no difference between a fertilized egg and a nine month fetus. I now realize how extreme and untenable that is. The reality is, there is a difference, and just because we cannot pinpoint the exact moment when a fetus becomes a human being does not mean we go to the extremes and force women to continue a pregnancy, it is not practical or possible. I understand those who feel differenlyly, but that is their religious value, and I don't understand why they feel they can force their beliefs onto others. I personally feel many things are morally wrong that others don't, but I don't expect the government to outlaw them because of my beliefs.

    As for Gosnell, he is evil and what he was doing is obviously both morally wrong and illegal. I think the religious right loves it when people like him come along, it gives them an excuse to beat the anti-abortion drum, as if there is absolutely no difference between safe, legal, early abortion and late term, unsafe,and illegal abortions. It was the kind of back or white thinking I did when I was a dub, because that is what the religion taught, but I have moved beyond that. The dubs believe that it is murder to a fertilized egg a moment after conception, but perfectly OK to let a one month old child die rather than get a bood transfusion. That kind of thinking just doesn't work for me anymore.

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