NWT

by amicus 26 Replies latest jw friends

  • scholar
    scholar

    Hi Amicus,

    I disagree with your comment that "there is no reason for this awkward wording" for the phrasing used at Acts 21:30 NWT. You must remember that the committee's policy was "to give as literal a translation as possible where the modern-English idiom and where a literal rendition does not, by any awkwardness, hide the thought".The expression that you object to is "and a running together of the people occurred". Many other non-literal translations reverse the word order so that you have the noun preceding the verbal action as shown in the NIV and the KJV. Interestinly, Rotherham's Emphasized Bible agrees with the NWT. It states "and there took place a running together of the people".

    Also in agreement with the NWT is the translation and commentary on this passage by ACTS in the prestigious International Critical Commentary, Vol.2, p.1017 by Emeritus Professor C.K. Barrett. It states "and there was a tumultuous concourse of the people". The commentary explains "As the context indicates, violent excitement is meant". (p.1021) This commentary originates from Great Britain, the home of proper English so it would have this expression put into correct and modern speech as does the NWT. In addition, the NWT captures by mode of expression the "authority, power, dynamism and the directness of the original Hebrew and Greek Scriptures. and to convey these characteristics in modern English".

    scholar

    hich

  • larc
    larc

    Scholar,

    You really do seem to be a scholar. I don't have the depth of knowledge on this subject to comment. As a layman, I would like ask some questions.

    I have a New Testament Bible that has six translations with verses side by side. The only old one is the King James. The other five are translations that were produced since 1950. These are: the Living Bible, the Phillips Modern Bible, the Revised Standard Version (updated), Today's English Version, the NIV, the Jerusalem Bible, ane the New English Bible. In the forward, it explains how each of these versions were created. I was impressed with the care, and the expertise that went into these works. I am sure that the authors of the NWT used care as well, but they strike me as not being as nearly as qualified as the authors of the other versions. Again, as a layman, I can only rely on the credentials of the translators. With this in mind, I have to ask why the NWT would be the "Rolles Royce" of translations compared to these other translations. In short, how do these other versions compare, and if they are inferior, as you imply, why do draw this conclusion?

  • Grunt
    Grunt

    I agree with you Amicus. I was not raised a Witness and always loved the majesty and beauty of the archaic English used in the King James as I was growing up. It sounds like Shakespeare in more than just spelling and vocabulary to me. But when "studying" and I use that term loosely, I came to trust the NWT. As is the case with so many Witness related issues, it came to a matter of violated trust. They lied to me and told me it had been prepared by scholars who went straight to the original translations or as close as they could get, and bypassed all the wiley manipulations of Christendom. I believed them. I did not, and do not believe in the Trinity, so I was easy to convince that the King James was a much less reliable bible than the NWT. It was after all translated by people who were interested only in accuracy and "Truth." I felt doubly betrayed when I read Crisis of Conscience and In Search of Christian Freedom and discovered just how the chief translator, Franz, felt about his own work. In speaking to his nephew he told him to use, "a less biased" translation, or words to that effect. Yeah. He (Franz the Elder) stabbed every Witness that trusts the NWT in the back when he twisted it to meet the ends of the Society.

    I constantly run into little deals when I discuss the bible with my dad. I was quoting 1 Corinthians 13:3 saying that works and knowledge don't matter compared to love, there where in the King James it says:

    "And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing."

    The NIV Study Bible says:
    "If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing."

    The New World Translations says:
    "And if I give all my belongings to feed others, and if I hand over my body, that I may boast, but do not have love, I am not profited at all."

    In the other two translations, it said the bodies were to be burned. The NWT just hands it over. The other translations don't mention bragging as a motive, the NWT does. Now, I haven't checked this with a lot of other translations, it is not a key verse, but those differences bother me.

    Once again, as in so many issues regarding Witnesses, it becomes a matter of betrayed trust. You think you can trust your best friend, you can't. He will repeat personal conversations and consider you an enemy in a heartbeat if it seems you no longer agree with The Society/God. You think you can trust your wife. You can't. As has happened so often, she will discuss and report deeply personal, often sexual, issues to the elders. In the confusion they had over oral sex, they had a tidal wave of wives turning in husbands. You think you can trust a child. You can't. As so many parents have been told, "My most important relationship is with Jehovah through his Slave." Voice doubts about any of the vacilliating doctrines of this "Slave" and you lose, a friend, a wife, a husband, a child, a parent. Now from Scholar we hear: "You must remember that the committee's policy was "to give as literal a translation as possible where the modern-English idiom and where a literal rendition does not, by any awkwardness, hide the thought". Yeah, right. Belive that if you choose too, Scholar. I can't help but think that you would rather say it is a "Rolls Royce" because that is a "Good Witness." It is an issue of trust. Put simply in my experience:

    Witnesses cannot be trusted.

    Their first allegiance is to the Society/Jehovah and it supercedes the truth. You know, Theocratic Strategy, whatever you need to say for Jehovah/The Society. I told a close relative once about Russell and the Pyramids, I thought they all knew about that already. Not so. A distinct distancing occured. Within a year the information was in a Watchtower Study with questions at the bottom,
    did that information re-install the relationship??? Nope. Could it now be discussed??? Nope. I was no longer to be trusted as I had said "bad" things about the "Slave." The fact that the "Slave" later said the same things, did not absolve me of having been critical of the "food" the "Slave" had provided. The Organization is not to be criticized by mere brothers, sisters, parents or spouses with impunity. They must be "disciplined." What a sad, sad joke these poor deluded and naive people have allowed to be perpetrated on them and on the people in this life that really love them and would never turn their backs on them. "However, in matters of scholarship where accuracy is more important than readibility then the NWT is undoubtedly the 'Rolls Royce' of Bible translations." Rolls Royce of translations??? With the "Scholars" they had working on it???? Yeah. Sure, and "This Generation" that was "12 years old or older" in 1914 will see the end. "Famine '75." "All experts agree." Right. Maybe the same experts and "scholars" that translated the NWT. An issue of trust; betrayed. I wouldn't use the NWT for anything other than a bookend, and then only on a private shelf in my den for fear others might misconstrue it as a real bible. It twists, it adds, it subtracts and it clouds, all for its own nefarious translators. Just like they go back and change things when putting them in the bound volumes and on the WT CD. Lies and emotional blackmail, threats and empty promises, twisted scriptures and self-glorification, the lack or denial of natural affection and the promotion of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. THAT is the chorus to the song these polluted "virgins" sing in words accepted by the locals from Bulgaria to Mexico. It is a matter of trust.

  • larc
    larc

    Wow Grunt,

    Your work is one of the finest essays I have ever read! Just outstanding.

    I just checked the five modern versions. They all say burned. It didn't say everlasting hell fire, but it must have been close enough for the NWT translators to expunge the term for fear of interfering with their doctrine. I don't believe in Hell fire, but that is no reason for them to take the words out of that scripture.

  • thinkers wife
    thinkers wife

    Grunt,
    I concur with Larc on your excellent reasoning.
    Please share these type of thoughts any time when these issues come up. I am still a babe as to reasoning things out. Difficult to get the WT's thoughts out of my head as absolute fact. But I do try to be open minded, and these type of discussions really help me. I have had conversations in the past while still a Witness with one's who did have a knowlege of Greek, but I wasn't open minded enough to listen back then. Woe is me. Wish I had.
    When I first met my husband, I told him the NWT was the most accurate. I have had a rude awakening.
    BTW, what year were the Pyramids mentioned in the WT? I brought this up to my father about three years ago (he is still an active Witness). And got a stone wall of silence. It has never been brought up between us or discussed since. I for one feel that what the founding fathers of any religion taught and believed is of paramount importance to making a decision about whether or not a religion is correct. Apparently he does not.
    TW

  • neyank
    neyank

    Hi Grunt.
    Well said.
    It is all a matter of trust.
    We who were JWs, were taught to trust the WTS above anyone or anything else. That includes families.
    Whatever the WTS said was considered law as coming from God.
    That's why they say to those with questions they can't answer to wait on Jehovah.
    Basically they're saying TRUST US even if you have questions because maybe we'll come up with some answers at a later time. And if we don't, continue to trust us anyway.

    neyank

  • Grunt
    Grunt

    TW,
    Please forgive my not posting this sooner. I have been out of town (at my son's in Orlando) and just got back in this evening. I had a hard time finding this, but finally did in a letter from a long time ago.
    I hope it helps.
    Here is the quote I was talking about (January 1, 2000 WT, Page 9 – starting with the last sentence in the 15th paragraph):

    It is wrong to add to God’s Word or to take anything away from it. – Deuteronomy 4:2; Revelation 22:18,19.

    16 One example will underline how important this principle is. In 1886 when C.T. Russell published a book that came to be called The Divine Plan of the Ages, This volume contained a chart linking the ages of mankind with the Great Pyramid of Egypt. It was thought that this memorial of Pharaoh Khufu was the pillar referred to at Isaiah 19:19, 20: “In that day there will prove to be an altar to Jehovah in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar to Jehovah beside its boundary. And it must prove to be a for a sign and for a witness to Jehovah of armies in the land of Egypt.” What relationship could the pyramid have with the Bible? Well, as an example, the length of certain passages in the Great Pyramid was said to indicate the time for the beginning of the “great tribulation” of Matthew 24:21, as it was then understood. Some Bible Students became engrossed with measuring different features of the pyramid to determine such matters as the day they would be going to heaven!

    17 This so called Bible in Stone was held in esteem for some decades, until the Watchtower issues of November 15, and December 1, 1928 made clear that Jehovah needed no stone monument built by pagan pharaohs and containing demonic signs of astrology to confirm the witness given in the Bible. Rather, Isaiah’s prophecy was seen to have a spiritual application. As at Revelation 11:8, “Egypt” is symbolic of Satan’s world. The “altar to Jehovah” reminds us of the acceptable sacrifices made by anointed Christians while they are temporary residents in this world. (Romans 12:1; Hebrews 13:15, 16) The pillar “beside [Egypt’s] boundary” points to the congregation of anointed Christians, which is “a pillar and support of the truth” and which stands as a witness in “Egypt,” the world that they are about to leave. –1 Timothy 3:15.

    18 As the years pass, Jehovah continues to give us further clarification of truth, including a clearer understanding of his prophetic word. (Proverbs 4:18) In recent years, we have been encouraged to look again with deeper understanding at – among other things – the generation that will not pass away before the end comes, the parable of the sheep and the goats, the disgusting thing and when it will stand in a holy place, the new covenant, the transfiguration, and the temple vision of the book of Ezekiel. It may be difficult at times to understand such updated explanations, but the reasons for them become clear in due course. If a Christian does not fully understand a new explanation of a scripture, he does well humbly to echo the words of the prophet Micah: “ I will show a waiting attitude for the God of my salvation”-Micah7:7.

    In addition here is a much older quote, a lengthy one, with the important part at the very bottom. The footnote saying that THEY are the ones who believed it and for so long!!! I hope this helps, and I am sure there are others with far more information. I only have a few special publications now. The NWT Bible my Mom and Dad gave me when I was baptized, and the Awake that I found the day after my daughter stopped speaking to me and told me she would never discuss religion with me, the title of the article? SHOULD YOU DISCUSS RELIGION Feb.22 1999 If you have it you should read it. If it hadn't been so sad I would have laughed at the irony.
    Grunt

    The Great Pyramid of Giza

    Product of the true worship or the false?

    THE Great Pyramid of Giza is one of "the seven wonders of the ancient world." It is the largest of nine pyramids found in Giza, in the valley of the Nile. The Great Pyramid is 486 feet high, or about the height of a modern 40-story building, and each of its four sides is 764 feet long; its base covers thirteen acres. The ratio of its height to the perimeter of its base is the same as that of the radius of a circle to its circumference, a most remarkable feature according to some mathematicians and astronomers. Its four sides line up perfectly with the four directions of the compass.

    The date that Herodotus gives for its building would make the Great Pyramid about three thousand years old today, but others insist that he is mistaken and that it was built about four thousand years ago. According to Herodotus and Manetho (Egyptian historian of the third century before Christ), the Great Pyramid was built by Cheops, one of the Shepherd kings who invaded Egypt and easily subdued it, closed all the temples and then compelled one and all to labor for them. "A hundred thousand men laboured constantly and were relieved every three months by a fresh lot. It took ten years’ oppression of the people to make the causeway for the conveyance of the stones, a work not much inferior, in my judgment, to the pyramid itself." This causeway was three fifths of a mile long, sixty feet wide and reached a height of forty-eight feet, was "built of polished stone, and [was] covered with carvings of animals. . . . The Pyramid itself took twenty years to build." The two lesser pyramids of Giza, Herodotus tells us, were built by Cheops’ brother and son.

    There has been much speculation as to the reason why these pyramids of Giza were built, and in particular why the Great Pyramid was built. Some have disposed of the problem by claiming that it was built solely as a tomb for Cheops, but is it reasonable that a ruler would direct all the resources of a land such as Egypt toward the building of a tomb, and that for thirty years? Others have concluded that it was built to house royal treasure, but the cost involved in building such a structure far exceeded all the value of whatever treasure a king might want to place in it! Others have ventured the opinion that it was built to serve as a temple, but that likewise does not seem to be the right explanation, as its smooth and slanting sides made access to its entrances very difficult.

    Because none of these theories fully and satisfactorily explain the purpose of building the Great Pyramid, others have developed the hypothesis that it was built under divine inspiration; that perhaps Melchizedek was its builder and that God provided it as a witness in stone to corroborate the Bible. Such men as John Taylor of London, Professor Smyth and Dr. Edgar of Scotland advocated the theory that the measurements of the Great Pyramid and particularly the measurements of its internal passageways and chambers, were full of Scriptural meaning.

    What are the facts? Is the Great Pyramid truly a witness to Jehovah? Was it built by his true worshipers to corroborate the Bible, or was it built by the devotees of pagan religions?

    NOT OF DIVINE ORIGIN

    First of all let us note that since God’s Word is a ‘lamp to our feet and a light to our path,’ and was furnished so that we might "be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work," there is no unfulfilled need that the Great Pyramid with its measurements would serve.—Ps. 119:105; 2 Tim. 3:15-17, NW.

    Jehovah God used some forty writers over a period of sixteen centuries to provide us with his Word. Is it reasonable to conclude that even before Moses began to write the Pentateuch God caused a massive structure to be built that was to corroborate his Word? Rather, is it not an insult to God to hold that he felt it necessary to corroborate his inspired Word by some mute edifice? And that its meaning should be hidden from man for several thousand years and revealed only at a time when the structure had been robbed of all its external beauty?

    Further, is it reasonable to hold that God would direct the construction of a building covering thirteen acres of ground, consisting of 90 million cubic feet of quarried stone, with stones as much as thirty feet long and estimated to weigh as much as 880 tons each, when all such work had to be done by slave labor? The very fact that the memory of the invading Shepherd kings who constructed these pyramids was so detested by the Egyptians for generations afterward would certainly put the building of the pyramids in the class of Pharaoh’s building program rather than that of King Solomon.

    Besides, if the Great Pyramid were built at God’s command should we not expect to find some reference to its construction in God’s Word, the Bible? The Bible tells us of the building of Solomon’s temple and that built under the direction of Governor Zerubbabel; also of the building of a water aqueduct by King Hezekiah, yes and also of the building of the tower of Babel, but not a word about any of the pyramids. Relevant to this argument also is the fact that none of the structures described in God’s Word employ the design of a pyramid.

    The fact also cannot be gainsaid that none of the measurements given in the Great Pyramid throw light on the all-important issue of universal sovereignty or why God has permitted evil. Remarkable as some of its measurements seem to appear, it also cannot be denied that these have led to false hopes resulting in disappointments and none of them serve any purpose in magnifying the name of Jehovah and preaching "this good news of the kingdom," nor are those who put so much store by the Great Pyramid sharing in such preaching work. If there are facts about the Great Pyramid that cannot be explained solely on the basis of human wisdom, then in view of all the foregoing we have no alternative but to conclude that it must have been accomplished by means of demon power rather than by the active force of Jehovah God.

    THE ALTAR TO JEHOVAH

    One Scripture text that has been used in times past to support the position that the Great Pyramid is of divine origin reads: "In that day shall there be an altar to Jehovah in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar at the border thereof to Jehovah. And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto Jehovah of hosts in the land of Egypt; for they shall cry unto Jehovah because of oppressors, and he will send them a saviour, and a defender, and he will deliver them." By an ingenious set of lines an attempt was made to show how the Great Pyramid was both in the midst of the land of Egypt and at the same time at its border. But no literal structure could literally be both in the midst and at the border of a literal land.—Isa. 19:19, 20, AS.

    However, the Bible does use the term Egypt in a figurative sense, as at Revelation 11:7, 8 (NW) where the condition of God’s servants in 1918 and 1919 is described as follows: "And when they have finished their witnessing, the wild beast that ascends out of the abyss will make war with them and conquer them and kill them. And their corpses will be on the broad way of the great city which is in a spiritual sense called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was also impaled."

    The term "altar" as used in the above scripture means a place of sacrifice, and today God’s people are offering sacrifices to Jehovah in the midst of antitypical Egypt, Satan’s world. They are also serving as a pillar, as a monument or witness to Jehovah. While it would be impossible for a literal structure to be both in the midst and at the border of a literal land, this can be true in a figurative sense. The witnesses of Jehovah are today found in the midst of or throughout modern Egypt, that is, Satan’s world; and yet in another sense it can be said that they are also at its border in that they are standing at its edge, ready to pass over into the new world after the battle of Armageddon. That they are to serve as witnesses is stated time and again in the Scriptures: "Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, . . . and I am God." And as for their being a sign, note the words of the Greater Isaiah, Christ Jesus, in which he refers to his followers as children given him: "Behold, I and the children whom Jehovah hath given me are for signs and for wonders."—Isa. 43:10-12; 8:18, AS; Heb. 2:13.

    Regardless of how interesting, fascinating or intriguing the mathematical, chronological and astronomical implications of the Great Pyramid of Egypt might be, they fade into insignificance when compared with the great work Jehovah is having done today by his altar in the midst of Egypt and his pillar at the border. What the people need today is not just an implied corroboration of Bible chronology but the truth regarding the great issue to be settled, Who rules supreme, Jehovah God or Satan the Devil? They need to see the clear line of demarcation that exists between God’s organization and that of the Devil, and they must be shown the urgency of seeking Jehovah, righteousness and meekness before it is too late.—Zeph. 2:1-3.

    Since all the evidence points to the fact that the Great Pyramid was not constructed at God’s direction, for Christians to take it seriously would be tantamount to going down to Egypt for help. (Isa. 31:1) Not by means of a pagan slave-labor-built pile of stone but by means of his Word, his organization and his active force, his holy spirit, Jehovah God is training his dedicated servants for the ministry.

    THE LIKELY MOTIVE

    There remains but one question. Since it is clear that the Great Pyramid was not built at the direction of Jehovah, and since it appears that it was not built solely to serve as a tomb nor as a storehouse for treasure nor as a temple for pagan worship, can any satisfactory explanation be given of Cheops’ motive for having it built?

    Yes, there is one theory that has much to recommend it and that is based on the prominence that the Great Pyramid gives to the sciences of mathematics and astronomy. It is known that in ancient times astronomy and astrology were considered as one. And from Scriptural and secular history it is apparent that the Chaldeans excelled in both. And it further appears that Cheops and those with him, who conquered Egypt with apparently so little effort, came from Chaldea. Therefore, in view of "the mysterious influence which astrologers ascribe to special numbers, figures, positions, and so forth, the care with which the Great Pyramid was so proportioned as to indicate particular astronomical and mathematical relations is at once explained."

    And further, when we consider that "the Chaldeans from the earliest times pursued the study of alchemy in connection with astrology," by which they hoped to discover the ‘philosopher’s stone,’ and by which in turn they believed they would be able to transmute base metals to gold and silver and at the same time discover the secret of life, then we can find a justification for the building of the Great Pyramid, as a monument erected to astrology with the hope of discovering the fundamental secrets of life and all matter.—The Great Pyramid, R. A. Proctor.

    Thus, this most logical explanation of all as to the reasons underlying the construction of the Great Pyramid of Giza would indicate that it certainly was not built by those engaging in the true worship of Jehovah God but by those devoted to astrology, a manifestation of Devil religion, and was built in furtherance of such religion.

    [Footnotes]

    Bible Students also held to this thought prior to 1928

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